2015 Pro Worlds full- Another registration fiasco?

[optidiscic]

Its way less glamorous if the best players are not there

I am sick of the term entitled traveling pros

Ams and players who are not competitive are just as entitled if not worse

890 guy is entitled to take a pro masters spot because he can

 

[optidiscic]

imo a bigger player pool is the answer

more hotel rooms

more $

more glamour and more festivus for the whiny entitled marginal pros

 

[JC17393]

In micro terms I have this problem with a c tier I run every yr

I could fill it with my tagholders and it would essentially be a big tags match

ho hum soooo boring so I try to save spots for regional pros

Whats to stop Emporia Worlds from just being a bunch of locals competing for the Worlds Title

The invitation and registration process. It isn't an open registration. Locals have to earn their way in the same as the out of towners...and sign up in time just like the out of towners.

I thinking more spots and allowing +1000 a week is the logical fix

It can be a festival and a serious tourney simultaneously

I don't think the total numbers are what they are by choice. They are what they are due to logistics. How many places have the courses, staff, housing etc to accommodate 1000+ disc golfers for a week. There are only 144 players in Open this year because that is what the course/staff capacity in Pittsburgh can handle. Maybe Emporia can handle more with more courses on hand. Maybe they can't. Can't really base it on the GBO, though, because we're talking about a different format with a different schedule.

 

[optidiscic]

its funny cause alot of these guys who have gone to worlds for the past 25 yrs stay at campgrounds 4 to a tent or on peoples floors and really give no economic impact

even if we had 2000 players worlds the economic impact would be that of a drifter buying cigareetes from the gas station lol

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Hahaha troof.

 

[DavidSauls]

What about the current process isn't "reasonable accommodations" though? They're invited. They are given plenty of notice as far as when to sign up. Seems there's room to debate whether or not special accommodations rate as "reasonable".

Good question.

The current process is shaky. The situation this year worked out fine, because it took 10 hours to fill. No gripes there. But those 10 hours weren't set by the PDGA. If it fills significantly faster in future years, then getting an "invite" won't be enough. You'll have to be available at the right moment, and perhaps lucky.

The time to think about it is now, not after it becomes a real problem. Since there's a 2-year lead time---people are already earning points with expectation of the 2016 Worlds invites---I hope the PDGA is thinking hard about 2017.

 

[coupe]

Its way less glamorous if the best players are not there

I am sick of the term entitled traveling pros

Ams and players who are not competitive are just as entitled if not worse

890 guy is entitled to take a pro masters spot because he can

Without 890 guy and ams and player who are not competitive donating 90% of the purse and 99.5% of the labor—including hustling up the sponsorship dollars to meet the added cash requirements—at every "tour" stop, there ARE no traveling pros. Period.

 

[discger]

Without 890 guy and ams and player who are not competitive donating 90% of the purse and 99.5% of the labor—including hustling up the sponsorship dollars to meet the added cash requirements—at every "tour" stop, there ARE no traveling pros. Period.

Yup, and I have no problem with an 890 guy taking a spot in an A, B, or C tier tourney, but this is Worlds, not some random tourney. It's the premier event. I don't hate the individual players that signed up for this year's Worlds, it's not their fault they were invited to Worlds. If I got the invite, I would be tempted to sign up, and wouldn't feel bad about playing. The problem is with the PDGA's process to their Majors, NTs, and the Worlds. There are people out there that those tournies are meant to showcase, and they should get priority. Nothing big, just a priority. The current qualification process is actually quite low. Many of the lower rated players are playing 930-950 rated golf in less than 10 tournies and still qualifying for the invite, often times the majority of those points come from playing 950 rated golf in the previous year's worlds, which is weighted higher in points. This almost creates a vicious cycle, but it's not really that extreme, but it could be.

The 1000 or 1020+ rated touring pros should be entitled to something, they have earned it. They play at the top of our game, and they are who we want to see playing in our most important event. Yes, they benefit throughout the year from low rated/less skilled players playing small events in MPO and basically taking their money, but there's 100s if not 1000s of those tournies each year. This is the Worlds, which should showcase the top talent. I help run a couple B-tiers a year, I have a crappy rating, we have lots of players sign up for MPO that are rated around 900 or below, and we often fill. I've had to turn away 1000 rated players before (usually them calling midnight the night before, but that's another topic), and I just have to say I'm sorry, you can't get in.

The National Tour is for the touring pros and the top talent to showcase disc golf at its best, and the Worlds should be even a stop above those standards. A few NTs this year are using tiered registration, the PDGA Euro-Tour already does this, what's wrong with doing it for this event and all NTs in the US?

And yes there are traveling pros. More and more now. There used to be just a handful, and now you are seeing more and more 1000 rated local pros starting to do mini-tours and full blown national tours. That number has probably quadrupled if not more in the last 5 years, which is a good thing for our sport.

 

[scarpfish]

its funny cause alot of these guys who have gone to worlds for the past 25 yrs stay at campgrounds 4 to a tent or on peoples floors and really give no economic impact

They still gotta eat. A bag of M&M's and some beef jerky brought from home can only go so far.

 

[AndyJB]

Just another thought:

What if Worlds was just MPO and FPO? Bulk up Selienske and make that a Masters Worlds. It's already a premiere event for the older divisions...why not make it their Worlds? This would open up more spots for MPO and FPO and give it a true Worlds flavor.

Lots of other mariginal sports have Masters type World Championships at seperate times/locales than their premier events. Mr. Olympia and the Masters Olympia in bodybuilding comes to mind.

Not a long term fix, but maybe a stopgap until the situation is truly resolved.

 

[Cgkdisc]

There's a lot of talk about this being Worlds, similar to an Olympic event, but it's not. It's the PDGA Worlds. It's equally open to all pro members who qualify based on their previous year performance. It's not specifically about the best players attending, just those who qualify in each division and enter when it's time to do so. Certainly the better players have more incentive to enter when they have a better chance to win or cash. But the system is still equal access, other than the Am and Pro Champs in each division from last year getting temporarily reserved spots. The 144 is about the right amount of Open slots as a percentage of the total field this year which about matches the Open percentage of pro PDGA membership.

I'm not defending it or saying it's the way it should be going forward. It's just the way it has been. Any pro member should see this has been an equally fair way for pro members of all ages to get in, at least for the moment. The quick solution to get all of the best attending, without changing the equal access model, would be to have an Open Worlds separate from the Age division pros. It would likely have enough capacity to not even fill for several more years when eventually merit (ratings?) of some sort might need become part of the requirements. Sounds like those plans are in the works but which year is anyone's guess right now.

Those complaining about perhaps not seeing all of the best in the World competing, well, you're not directly paying for whatever coverage is provided. It's like complaining about a community you don't live in only installing 15 free holes with their taxpayer money rather than an 18 hole free course for you to play. I'd certainly like to see the best playing. But as a PDGA member I'm already underwriting the costs for the PDGA media people and others involved in live scoring, video and reporting the event.

Maybe when paying spectators, bigger sponsors and more international players entering starts becoming more important than equal access participation for members, the model should probably change. But until then, I suspect that most PDGA members like the idea that they at least have a shot at playing in their PDGA Am or Pro Worlds without having to become an elite player to get into the World Championships for PDGA members.

 

[coupe]

Yup, and I have no problem with an 890 guy taking a spot in an A, B, or C tier tourney, but this is Worlds, not some random tourney. It's the premier event.

Worlds hasn't been the premier event since the USDGC hit its stride: if it were, people wouldn't be arguing Paul McBeth can't be considered the GOAT until he wins at least one USDGC. Maybe it SHOULD be the premier event, but the facts on the ground say it ain't.

And, as has been amply noted upthread, Worlds, as it is presently conceived, is NOT (and never has been) primarily about the competition: it's about a "family reunion" with a tournament on the side. Whether or not that changes, and whether or not it SHOULD change, is up to the ENTIRE membership of the PDGA, not just the touring pros and their fanbois.

 

[bogeyfreetilinfinity]

WORLDS
44/143 players rated 1000+. 52/143 players rated under 970.

BSF
48/75 players rated 1000+. 0/75 players rated under 970.

there will always be the handful of elite 1030+ players who are playing well that week battling at the top. Is 1000 really the best cutoff number for ratings based registration? Can a 968 rated player string together a bunch of great rounds and be a legit contender? i like to think so.

I'm just hoping Barsby gets in. He has being crushing this year.

 

[mullethead326]

Worlds hasn't been the premier event since the USDGC hit its stride: if it were, people wouldn't be arguing Paul McBeth can't be considered the GOAT until he wins at least one USDGC. Maybe it SHOULD be the premier event, but the facts on the ground say it ain't.

I bet if you surveyed pro players, you'd probably find that most of them would rather have the world title, and some may feel that the USDGC has lost some prestige (rather than hitting its stride) since adding the Performance Flight.

 

[ru4por]

its funny cause alot of these guys who have gone to worlds for the past 25 yrs stay at campgrounds 4 to a tent or on peoples floors and really give no economic impact

even if we had 2000 players worlds the economic impact would be that of a drifter buying cigareetes from the gas station lol

Hmmm....the guys I know that have been going to worlds for 25 years are not the ones camping and crashing on peoples couches. They are staying in nice hotels, eating out decent every night and maybe bringing the wife. Might just be the crowd of old dudes I hang out with.

 

[discger]

There's a lot of talk about this being Worlds, similar to an Olympic event, but it's not. It's the PDGA Worlds. It's equally open to all pro members who qualify based on their previous year performance. It's not specifically about the best players attending, just those who qualify in each division and enter when it's time to do so.

It is certainly marketed as the de-facto Worlds, like an Olympic event, much like a championship in any other sport. It's celebrated like one. It's the tourney that everyone remembers, celebrates, and it's what the sport has marketed this tourney as, THE WORLD CHAMPION. Climo won 12 Worlds, he's the champ, we don't really keep count of his other titles as much. McBeth won the last 3 straight, that's half of why he is the top dog in disc golf right now. Schusterick won 3 USDGC's, and his recognition isn't anywhere near as high, though that tourney is far more restrictive in qualifications and registrations. Worlds is the marquee event for our emerging sport, and should be treated as such. It can still have the inclusive tight knit community festival atmosphere, just let our truly best players have a spot guaranteed.

Those complaining about perhaps not seeing all of the best in the World competing, well, you're not directly paying for whatever coverage is provided. It's like complaining about a community you don't live in only installing 15 free holes with their taxpayer money rather than an 18 hole free course for you to play. I'd certainly like to see the best playing. But as a PDGA member I'm already underwriting the costs for the PDGA media people and others involved in live scoring, video and reporting the event.

I'm a PDGA member, I've helped run PDGA tourneys, I've donated to Disc Golf Planet, Smashboxx, and many disc golf organizations. I've helped pay for baskets, sponsored tournaments, play in leagues, petitioned parks and rec boards etc. I don't think I'm alone among most people that care about this issue. We all are trying to grow the game. I think many of see this as a problem. It's not casual players, it's not just people not involved, it's people that have skin in the game, that truly want the best for the sport. I doubt Steve Rico is thrilled that because on a random Friday for a 10 hour period he wasn't at a computer, he might not get into worlds. I've seen many 1000 rated players that are on the waitlist for the Worlds or were on the waitlist for the Memorial complain about this. This is the National Tour and the Worlds. It should be for our top competition first. Just give them a tiered registration, and this wouldn't be an issue. Simple fix. Equal access is dumb for NT and Worlds. There will still be equal access to the remaining 90 spots after you offer the top 50 in the World a spot.

Maybe when paying spectators, bigger sponsors and more international players entering starts becoming more important than equal access participation for members, the model should probably change. But until then, I suspect that most PDGA members like the idea that they at least have a shot at playing in their PDGA Am or Pro Worlds without having to become an elite player to get into the World Championships for PDGA members.

Sure, still give them the chance to play in the Pro Worlds, but only after you give reserved spots out to those who can compete. If I ever got a Worlds invite, I'd probably register. I'm not mad at the players that registered this year and are rated 950 and below. That's not their fault. It's the PDGA's. There should be a spot guaranteed for those players that can truly win it, that actually tour and make a living at doing this. That number surely right now isn't over 50. So either expand the field by 50 and reserve those spots for the players who qualify under PDGA World Rankings, NT ranking, points, or ratings, or whatever else the PDGA (and I know you) put so much effort into, make them mean something even more. Or if you don't want to grow the field, then just do a tiered registration like they do in Europe, and I believe some NTs are doing this year.

 

[discger]

Worlds hasn't been the premier event since the USDGC its stride: if it were, people wouldn't be arguing Paul McBeth can't be considered the GOAT until he wins at least one USDGC. Maybe it SHOULD be the premier event, but the facts on the ground say it ain't.

The only reason why people are even mentioning that McBeth might not be the GOAT because he hasn't won the USDGC is because until recently, the only players ever to win the USDGC had multiple Worlds titles. USDGC is a great event, to me it's the 2nd most important. I like how there are qualifier events for it, there's certain criteria that you must meet to get in automatically, and there are qualifying rounds the days before the main event for others who don't meet that criteria. It'd be great if Worlds would adopt that. Worlds being a week long event, that might be hard to accomplish, but I think the PDGA could learn a lot from the Worlds.

Having the performance based USDGC replacing the classic format was a disaster, no one remembers who won that first one, the players didn't like it. They still have the performance flight to run along side the main USDGC event, but outside of Paige Pierce winning last year's performance flight, it's kind of irrelevant for those not attending.

And, as has been amply noted upthread, Worlds, as it is presently conceived, is NOT (and never has been) primarily about the competition: it's about a "family reunion" with a tournament on the side. Whether or not that changes, and whether or not it SHOULD change, is up to the ENTIRE membership of the PDGA, not just the touring pros and their fanbois.

That's not what it's marketed as, and a win at Worlds is definitely seen as a world championship, not the "winner of the PDGA's yearly reunion." It's hands down the most respected title in the game. Ken Climo made it that way, the PDGA made it that way, and the disc golf public pays attention to it because of it's standing in the game. A tournament to decide the pro disc golf world championship and a tournament celebrating the disc golf community and family do not have to be mutually exclusive. TDs have already proved that they can run large tournaments with tons of players for a festival type atmosphere (like GBO) or can run restrictive top pro only events like the USDGC. Yes, it's up to the PDGA, and this free-for-all registration process seems like an issue that needs to be readdressed.

 

[hook_nuts]

Lots of fail in these posts. ALOT of people support the coverage for these tournaments obviously. Myself included. The Worlds was marketed as a family atmosphere to get tons of baddies to donate to make a bigger payout for the real pros. The goal is to grow a sport not a hobby. If it's a bunch of Joe blows competing no one cares. Thank you Joe Blow for doing your part though. Now if a couple have to step aside to ensure the pros play then so be it. Or god forbid they could practice and increase their skill set to match the increase in competition to ensure they get the spot if requirement changes.

 

[davetherocketguy]

If, as some of you say, this not necessarily about the best vs. the best then people need to stop calling it a world championship. Might want to inform the folks who put this web page together:

http://www.2015pdgaproworlds.org/

That also means people like Climo, Shultz, McBeth, etc need to stop calling themselves world champions. Maybe winner of worlds?

Yeah, good luck with that.

Either change the name or make it about what the name says. Can't have it both ways.

-Dave

 

[thruhiker99]

There has to be some accountability and responsibility on the part of the participating players. This is the World Open championships and not an Invitational.

But even if it was an invitational and there was some sort of tiered registration, the same problem would still exist. The USDGC gives what, 30 days or so, of invite only registration and there are STILL "professionals" EVERY year that can't get registered and compete on Monday for one of the only 5 non-guaranteed spots.

So what's the right amount of time to give these entitled "professionals?" I say it doesn't really matter because the irresponsible ones are going to find a way to mess it up one way or another and then the entitlement turns to whining and complaining. At some point there has to be a line drawn for Open tournaments.

Now debating turning Worlds into a purely invitational event is another concept that would require amending the advertised benefits of paid membership to the Association. Creation of (another) true invitation-only event is possible, but at some point, you STILL have to register for logistical and organizational reasons.