The Real Face of Disc Golf

[denny ritner]

I've written 109 disc golf course reviews for this site. 107 of those 109 were written between 2008 and 2013. When I stopped writing reviews regularly I had grown tired of making the same criticisms over and over again. I had also concluded that most courses already had sufficient reviews to guide traveling players; hence my efforts were largely redundant. (If you're curious about my background in the sport, scroll down to the bottom.)

Until last year I had spent a few years playing solely recreationally again. I have been enjoying the game a lot as I've been away from the competitive scene. During this time I have also been enjoying the huge leaps in quality video of disc golf events available online. I was particularly blown away by the St. Jude's Classic footage from 2015. I'm greatly impressed by the hard work and perseverance of Terry Miller and others bringing impressive quality to the look and commentary on play. Lots and lots of people have been involved in moving the sport forward in this regard and it has been very cool to watch. We now have a product that we can point our non-discing friends, colleagues and relatives to and have them respond immediately and positively.

In addition to the vastly improved look of video coverage, we've got a quality crop of professional players, both young and older. I've enjoyed the opportunities to meet and play with many of the top players. Watching the way that they interact with novice and experienced players alike, I'd say that with very rare exceptions they are exceptional ambassadors for the sport. I would single out Team Jenkins (including Nate Doss) for being among the best in competing, teaching, representing and just plain loving the sport to a higher level.

Now, while it is awesome that our sport has a much improved video presentation with the potential to get even better, it is not the real face of the sport. The real face of our sport is found at our courses around this country and others. However cool something thinks the sport looks on video; the rubber hits the road when they go to play at a course.
I have yet to play outside of the States, so my thoughts do not apply to Europe and other locations. To be blunt, many of our courses have significant flaws that are being replicated. I stopped writing reviews due to repeating the same criticisms over and over. The flaws which I'll address here fall into the categories of navigation and safety. These are not the only areas of consistent weakness in our courses, but the ones which most greatly impact new players.

I write course reviews primarily to aid traveling players. Most times travelers will be playing without the benefit of a local guide. First things, first: can the course be found upon arrival to the site? I've played many courses by starting on a hole other than #1 due to not having any signs indicating where the course starts. In addition to being a no-brainer for disc golfers coming to a course, proper course location signage serves as a promotion to those who may have little or no familiarity with the sport.

Once having found the first tee, a course should navigate effortlessly. It's great to have nice tee signs and a map available online, but they are compliments to rather than substitutes for adequate navigation signage in between holes. If multiple tees are used, then arrows with the appropriate colors are needed. If in doubt, add more navigation arrows. This is basic stuff. It is amazing to me how many courses are lacking in this area. After the planning and the money and the labor added to create a course, why would anyone skimp on adequate signage? I can only imagine this:

I grew up on ball golf with 18 holes as the standard. I like 18 holes. Having said that, I accept that many disc golf courses have other numbers of holes. For the love of all things circular and flying: PLEASE don't label holes with letters. If a course changes, then the signage needs to be updated to reflect those changes.

With very few exceptions, courses can be designed with multiple loops back to the parking area. Traditionally that means two loops of nine, but the concept can be applied in creative ways. (i.e. 6-6-6, 8-8-8, etc.) There are two bigger courses that I play regularly in the Austin area where I frequently see people trudging back off the course a long distance. Many people say that they don't like these courses because they are "too long". It's not that the courses are too long; many people would greatly enjoy playing nine holes on them. Additionally, a lot of times players want some more golf after 18 and another nine would be perfect. It can also help at peak play times allowing some players the opportunity, when clear, to tee off on both nines.

Many players and designers love lots of extra basket locations. While I certainly appreciate variety for the sake of regular players, alternative placements can be very confusing for traveling players absent clear signage. It sucks to stand on a tee with multiple baskets in sight each of which could possibly be "the hole" and look at a tee sign like below. Courses which have implemented tee signs with moving bolts are good, but it should still be obvious which basket is which if multiple ones are visible.

Regarding safety:
Courses need to be designed with the worst possible shot in mind. Most of the courses on which I play have inexcusable safety issues. This may sound like an overstatement, but it is not. I consistently have found safety issues on courses designed by some of our sport's most prolific and respected designers. It seems like these errors are continuing to propagate in new designs by many who are emulating "the standard". I've played many holes that were dangerously designed and then excused, for example, with the logic that discs are going to fade left away from the road.

This example shows a long left-to-right dogleg with a busy kid's playground very much in play.

This example shows a 600 ft. par 4 with a hidden bike path running downhill about 125 ft. off the tee. Imagine a little kid cruising down the hill only to get smashed in the head with a 75 mph high speed driver.

This one is a 420 footer with a blind pedestrian crossing at about the 280 foot mark.

A sign like this one is generally an indicator of design mistakes:

"Safety" Mandatories are an oxymoron. New players will not know what they are. Wild throwers will miss them dangerously. Some players will simply disregard them. These holes are not properly designed for safety. I do believe, however, that Mandos can be used selectively to toughen up a course for competition.

I recently read a Facebook post from a touring pro which read:
"Why on earth would an NT put a basket 40 feet from a tee pad? Just caught a spike hyzer to my throwing arm." This happens WAAAAY too often. Holes crowd each other on most of the courses in existence. Many crowded, mediocre 18 hole courses could actually be great 9 hole courses. Fairways overlap. Roads are dangerously in play. Playgrounds and picnic tables are in play. The "black" ace should never happen. Maximizing buffer space around holes should come before other design desires. This safety consideration is sacrificed far too regularly by the "best" designers and others think, "if _____ does this then it's fine."

Wrapping up:
The errors in course design regarding navigation and safety (among others) are far too prevalent. Some of our most highly regarded designers regularly make these mistakes and they have been systematically "normed" as others emulate their work. From my observations, one notable exception who is very detail-oriented and diligent about addressing these concerns in his designs is Gregg Hosfeld of World Champion Disc Golf Course Design. The thoughts expressed in this post are not to call out any particular designer, but to highlight design mistakes which imo are rookie errors which are too frequently being made.

*****************************************************************************
Just a few quick notes on my background in the sport so that you get an idea of my perspective: * Played ball golf for almost 40 years
* Worked on eight golf courses as a caddy and groundskeeper
* First played disc golf with a lid in 1982 at Raintree Park in Troy, MI
* Began to play the game with golf discs in 1998 at Brown Park in Ann Arbor, MI
* Played in PDGA events since 1999
* Player rating peaked at 965
* TD for 12 events
* Designed 7 temporary courses that were used for tournament play
* Designed 6 permanent courses
* Co-designed The Red Hawk DGC and served as Assistant TD for The Players Cup
* Created and co-managed the original Disc Golf Cruise
* Course official at two PDGA Major events
* Created and co-managed La Vie en Rose – A PDGA women-only event

 

[RistoS]

Excellent post. Not to generalize too much, but many pictures I see from recreational US courses make me think "this needs a big map somewhere good." Virtually every Finnish course has a big, graphically clear map somewhere near hole 1, some even have several around the course area. This is because DiscGolfPark has slowly made it a standard of sorts.

Link to a non-DGP map (it's a little large) - notice how different layouts are color coded.

 

[denny ritner]

I can't comment from actual playing experience, but it does look to me like DiscGolfPark is doing a lot to move things forward and could very well be the world leader. Looking forward to playing some of their tracks in the future.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Excellent post. Not to generalize too much, but many pictures I see from recreational US courses make me think "this needs a big map somewhere good." Virtually every Finnish course has a big, graphically clear map somewhere near hole 1, some even have several around the course area. This is because DiscGolfPark has slowly made it a standard of sorts.

Link to a non-DGP map (it's a little large) - notice how different layouts are color coded.

Do you have problems with vandalism in Finland? Tagging signs and benches with Sharpies is rampant in the U.S. I tend to not recommend nice tee signs and course signs unless the Park Dept is committed to regularly clean them up. I've gone to having the maps online with QC codes available at the start of the course and the first few tee signs for players to download to their phones.

 

[denny ritner]

I tend to not recommend nice tee signs and course signs unless the Park Dept is committed to regularly clean them up.

Agree 100% on not wasting money on "sweet" tee signs. Courses do need routine maintenance, which many fail to properly mention in their course pitches.

 

[Chiefstang]

Do you have problems with vandalism in Finland? Tagging signs and benches with Sharpies is rampant in the U.S. I tend to not recommend nice tee signs and course signs unless the Park Dept is committed to regularly clean them up. I've gone to having the maps online with QC codes available at the start of the course and the first few tee signs for players to download to their phones.

We've designed our tee signs to be component based at my course and have "spare parts" on hand. Plexiglass or lexan are set up to bear the brunt and are easily replaced. It takes about 5 minutes to fix one up if the local kids get to it.

 

[RistoS]

Do you have problems with vandalism in Finland? Tagging signs and benches with Sharpies is rampant in the U.S. I tend to not recommend nice tee signs and course signs unless the Park Dept is committed to regularly clean them up. I've gone to having the maps online with QC codes available at the start of the course and the first few tee signs for players to download to their phones.

No major issues with it, though my local course has some tags here and there, and one has even got itself bent a little. Biggest reason for this is probably that the courses around big cities are really popular, no one gets a real chance at vandalism anymore Save for "ace sharpies" on basket bands. Having so much daylight during summers probably helps as well.

That's indeed a bit of a double-edged sword when it comes to proper signage, when public image isn't quite up there yet like it is in Finland. It takes a bit of volunteer effort, and Chiefstang's method is indeed good.

 

[mhulkman]

I agree and thank you

For taking the time to post this. Ive only played a fraction of the courses you have and only a fraction of playing experience but Ive been blown away by the lack of safety on several courses. What concerns me is that this lack of thought for safety is eventually going to give the sport a black eye (pun intended). This 1 course in Murphys, Ca comes to mind.The course had baskets in the islands of a parking lot, 1 within 10ft of a busy road and right next to the driveway entering the parking lot. Its a matter of time before someone launches a throw just as a car turns into the parking lot and there is a 75mph drive right thru the windshield. Same course had another basket between a main road n baseball field that was so narrow even very good players could easily hit a car or ball player. Someone is going to get seriously hurt which brings negative publicity to our sport and in turn could make it a lot more difficult for the next disc golf course proposal. Where were city or county officials when it came to approving this horrible design? Then I leave a negative review on here saying how dangerous the course is and I got hate mail responses from a couple of locals, really?

I also agree on signage. Ive pulled up to several courses and have spent waaaayyy to much time trying to find the 1st tee. When traveling a lot times you can be on a tight schedule. You waste a half hour finding the 1st tee. Then there are usually a few more you cant find in the middle of the course, then add in that there is no marker for which basket is in play so you have to walk almost to the basket to find it before going back to throw. You anticipated only taking an hour to play 18 and 3 hours later you are back at your car. BS!!!

I live in northern nv and am blessed by the variety of courses here. Im 20min away from Lake Tahoe, which is a HUGE tourist destination and home to an incredible course, Zephyr Cove. ANY disc golfer coming from out of town will have Zephyr on there radar. But if you dont play with a local GOOD LUCK finding your way around. Course signage is basically non existant and several tees are very difficult to find, most of the tee signs do not show which basket is in play and most baskets are hidden so you will be walking several holes twice, the yardage on a few tee signs arent even close to being accurate, and until recently there was no map at the kiosk. Yet this is a major tournament course for the area and the course designer is considered Godly by most of the locals.

 

[joesouthfla]

How to determine acceptable risk.

There are some definite mistake you should never do such as designing holes that throw towards playgrounds, pavilions and blind sidewalks. On the other hand how do you determine acceptable risk, especially in multi use public parks? For example, hole 12 Markham Park, Sunrise Fl., which is where you took the picture of the do not throw if cars are aproaching sign. (Full disclosure, I am the course designer or that particular course.) For people reading this, the hole is approx. 300' with a park road that runs along one side on the fairway that also includes a bike path. There is high visibility in both directions but the safety issue can arise when disc golfers refuse to wait for the passing car or park goers. Did you feel that hole fell outside the acceptable level of safety and if so what would you have done differently? I appreciate your insights on this.

 

[DavidSauls]

A lot of issues raised here, ranging from Absolutes to Best Practices.

Can't argue with the safety issues---though sometimes there is a backstory, and it's not the designer's fault. For instance, if you play Earlewood Park (Columbia, SC), you might conclude that someone had a death wish for walkers. The truth is that the city put in walking trails 15 years after the course was established, and refused input from the disc golf club as to where they would be appropriate, or not. The saving grace is that the trails are also a taxpayer boondoggle---few people use them.

Of course, this is often a result of our limited choices of properties, and unwillingness to refuse property offered to us for a course, even when it's property that shouldn't have one.

Signage and intuitional course flow are nice, but they only matter the first time or two you play a course, and that's mostly the small subset of traveling disc golfers. Which I was once, so I commiserate. But not so much the as the face of disc golf to people finding the sport---most beginners are introduced to disc golf by friends, who know their way around.

The loops are very much a "best practice"---most of the courses around me have parking areas located where it would be very difficult to design in loops back to the parking lot. Or, if such a design were deemed necessary, the compromise would result in a weaker overall design. Another drawback to loops, on busier courses, are people taking a break, or just deciding to start on a hole other than #1, jumping into the course traffic and slowing everyone who started earlier on the course. I'm a little skeptical that many people find courses too long if they have to play the course all at once, but wouldn't if they could play it in smaller chunks.

 

[corin_brown]

You'll never be able to underestimate the quality of graphic design that goes into 99% of the signage around any of the disc golf courses I've seen, if there's even ANY signage to begin with.

And you forget about any kind of helpful wayfaring. It's really follow-your-nose stuff out there.

 

[denny ritner]

For example, hole 12 Markham Park, Sunrise Fl., which is where you took the picture of the do not throw if cars are aproaching sign. (Full disclosure, I am the course designer or that particular course.) For people reading this, the hole is approx. 300' with a park road that runs along one side on the fairway that also includes a bike path. There is high visibility in both directions but the safety issue can arise when disc golfers refuse to wait for the passing car or park goers. Did you feel that hole fell outside the acceptable level of safety and if so what would you have done differently? I appreciate your insights on this.

First: there is A LOT that I like about Markham. It is a well-rounded challenge with several holes that are unique for Florida courses with a good use of multiple tees. I'll acknowledge that the shape of the available land with fairly narrow areas paralleling the park road is tricky for design.

Regarding hole 12 in paricular: While I was warming up near hole 1's tee I watched three foursomes throw on hole 12 and 5/12 discs landed in the road. That's enough evidence for me to conclude that the hole is unsafe. Holes that parallel park roads are tricky. Generally they should tee very close to the road and angle away from the road as much as possible.

I also recall one or two of the finishing holes (16-18) where an optional flightline that is likely popular with players, goes over the parkroad for a significant amount of the disc's flight.

Designers should assume that players will do the worst possible thing and not hope that they won't. It only takes one traffic or pedestrian incident with the wrong person at the wrong time to result in getting a course pulled.

 

[nate22]

As a private course snob, I am finding myself losing both patience and time for courses that are poorly designed, specifically as it relates to the flow and numbers of pedestrians. I have played in top tier events in parks where people picnic, jog, walk dogs and even segway on the fairways. Where path ways are used as effin islands, mandos and OBs like that will prevent someone from making a potentially fatal error.

I can see even over here, a few parks have numbered days as the discs go faster and further...and a time will come when younger players will be shocked to find out we use to throw those things in public parks!

 

[Shade]

Denny, I'm sure many readers have appreciated your most practical insights. I share many of your frustrations as well. The disc golf community is fortunate to have enthusiasts such as yourself who care about our wonderful sport enough to take the time to do what you can to grow the sport safely for all. Thank you Sir!

 

[joesouthfla]

good feedback

First: there is A LOT that I like about Markham. It is a well-rounded challenge with several holes that are unique for Florida courses with a good use of multiple tees. I'll acknowledge that the shape of the available land with fairly narrow areas paralleling the park road is tricky for design.

Regarding hole 12 in paricular: While I was warming up near hole 1's tee I watched three foursomes throw on hole 12 and 5/12 discs landed in the road. That's enough evidence for me to conclude that the hole is unsafe. Holes that parallel park roads are tricky. Generally they should tee very close to the road and angle away from the road as much as possible.

I also recall one or two of the finishing holes (16-18) where an optional flightline that is likely popular with players, goes over the park road for a significant amount of the disc's flight.

Designers should assume that players will do the worst possible thing and not hope that they won't. It only takes one traffic or pedestrian incident with the wrong person at the wrong time to result in getting a course pulled.

Good feedback, I toyed with putting the am pad closer to the road but was concerned with players throwing discs over the fence that runs along the right. In retrospect I agree I should have placed the pad closer to the road. 16-18 is also problematic. All of this begs the question, what is acceptable risk? If we eliminated all the holes that run parallel to roads and sidewalks we would have to close down a bunch of courses. You are absolutely right when you say players will do the worst possible thing. A lot of it is new players but I have seen plenty of veteran players throw when park goers are in harms way. There is a need for some sort of governing body that can rate the safety of courses and work with the parks departments to correct the worst issues.

 

[johnrhouck]

Regarding safety:
Courses need to be designed with the worst possible shot in mind. Most of the courses on which I play have inexcusable safety issues. This may sound like an overstatement, but it is not. I consistently have found safety issues on courses designed by some of our sport's most prolific and respected designers. It seems like these errors are continuing to propagate in new designs by many who are emulating "the standard". I've played many holes that were dangerously designed and then excused, for example, with the logic that discs are going to fade left away from the road.

This example shows a long left-to-right dogleg with a busy kid's playground very much in play.

Hi, Denny --

I recognize this sign as Hole #9 at Steeplechase park in Kyle, Texas. https://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?id=1871&p=8200160a

I can assure you that there was no playground there when I designed the course 10+ years ago. Nor was it there when I did a review for the City in fall of 2014. In case anyone thinks I designed a hole with a playground in play, I want to make sure they know it's not true. I take safety very seriously and would never do something so egregious.

The moral of the story is that sometimes "bad design" is actually someone else making a bad decision long after the course was put in. And it happens far too often -- a few years ago I visited a course I had designed, only to find a 20' x 20' pavilion in the middle of a par three hole, about 100' in front of the tee.

I recently did a walk-through with city officials at McCord Park in Little Elm, Texas. I was shocked to see a sidewalk running right through the middle of Hole #4 and Hole #5. For all I know, it's been there for two years or more.

If anyone reading this ever sees any crazy changes like this on a course I've designed, please send me an e-mail: [email protected] When cities do something that endangers players or the public, they need to know that they've created that risk. There is a problem in our industry, and we all need to work together to fix t.

Thanks for bringing the Kyle situation to my attention. I'll bring it up with the parks department tonight. To be fair to the parks department, Google Earth shows something about 75' from the basket -- it's not as close to the fairway as you depicted it, unless they've added something since January -- but it's still too close.

 

[rhatton1]

These are some very good points. It's also legitiamised by top level competitions playing on layouts with children's playgrounds on the fairway (Hole one La Mirada World Tour) holes that the sensible shot is to skip off the road (too many to single out) Holes that cross walking paths, play over and through car parks (USDGC, fountain hills, memorial) Holes that play across roads etc. etc. etc.

These might be great fun to play, they might make great tournament holes, they might just bring a layout together. But. When 100's of thousands of eyes are viewing these videos (CCDG up to 10 million views now) and are seeing these sorts of holes it normalises and legitimises them.

It's getting to the stage where the PDGA needs to start reviewing course layouts before awarding majors to make sure course design is not legitimising dangerous layouts.

i'm sure I will get some hate for this, but from an overseas perspective it does shock me what seems to run as normal for many US courses.

 

[DavidSauls]

The moral of the story is that sometimes "bad design" is actually someone else making a bad decision long after the course was put in. And it happens far too often -- a few years ago I visited a course I had designed, only to find a 20' x 20' pavilion in the middle of a par three hole, about 100' in front of the tee.

Here's a classic example of this: Earlewood Park in Columbia, SC. Earlewood is a fairly heavily-played, old-school course on very hilly land in an urban neighborhood, and has been there since 1990-1992.

The parks department decided to put a boondoggle of a walking trail through the park. They refused to meet with the club to discuss the best and worst places for it. In fact, on the day that the parks people and trail advocates met there to lay out the trail, we heard a rumor and tried and tried to confirm the meeting. With no response, the local club president crashed the meeting and got them to alter some of the very worst parts.

But there's still a trail system winding through the course, in a lot of cases in blind spots for disc golfers, in a few cases in blind spots that are extremely hard for disc golfers to survey, even if they wish to. The only saving grace is that the trail remains a boondoggle, and lightly used.

Not to mention the amphitheater that was built in the middle of 2 holes---a bigger boondoggle, as far as I know it's been used once in 13 years.

But if you visited Earlewood for the first time, now, you'd think the course designer---Harold Duvall, of all people---had plans to maim non-disc-golfers.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Mr. Houck makes an excellent point. Years after the fact, it's not obvious when the stupidity occurred or who the irresponsible party was.

 

[johnrhouck]

OK, I've been in touch with the parks department after sending them an e-mail about the situation last night.

It turns out that the new feature (in the orange circle) is not a playground after all. It is a flagpole put in as a scouting project.

So I guess that means that Denny is referring to the pavilion and playground at the top of the aerial. The City responded to my questions by saying they consider it "not an issue."

And here are several reasons why it's not an issue:

1. That playground is 150' from the basket.

2. It's not at all in the line of play as Denny's depiction implies.

3. There are several trees that direct the shot to the right and which protect the area from bad shots.

4. The tee and beginning of the fairway (not shown in the aerial) are very tight and restrict the size of the landing area on drives, so that most players are throwing to the basket from about the same area.

5. There is no consistent wind to consider in the playground's direction.

6. Also, remember that this course was designed at a time when discs were not as advanced as they are today.

On top of all that, I went back and researched my 2014 report to the City. In it, I encouraged them to plant a couple dozen good-sized trees in key places, including hole #9. So far I have not been able prevail upon them to do so. The designer cannot control days when there is freaky wind, nor can he control the infinite possibility of bad shots. Crazy things can happen. We still design responsibly. To read this original post was a surprise, because no one has come forward to tell me anything about this hole over the last 10+ years. As I stated above, the City doesn't consider this a problem, and maybe that's why they didn't plant the trees.