2017 Amateur & Junior World Championships - Invitation Criteria

[DanJon]

No... you CANNOT play a ton of tournaments and come in last for 2 points each time and qualify. You have to both play a lot of tournaments and do well in them. I played in 36 tournaments last year... won 11 and finished in top 4 27 times. So I got a quite a few points (2nd in points race... argh!)

How many points over the minimum were you?

 

[araytx]

It comes up because it goes against every kind of competition I know of to call an event a "World Championship" and not have the best of that classification (if they choose to) be there.

That's the misconception. It is NOT Championships of the Amateur and Jr Disc Golf World. Nowhere in the description of the tournament does it come close to near even implying that. The tournament is the "PDGA Amateur and Jr World Championships", aka "Am Worlds." I get the problem. It would be better to rename it "the World Ams" (akin to what "the World Open" would be for the pros).

 

[DanJon]

That's the misconception. It is NOT Championships of the Amateur and Jr Disc Golf World. Nowhere in the description of the tournament does it come close to near even implying that. The tournament is the "PDGA Amateur and Jr World Championships", aka "Am Worlds." I get the problem. It would be better to rename it "the World Ams" (akin to what "the World Open" would be for the pros).

"PDGA Amateur and Jr World Championships"

Try explaining that to an outsider to the sport and they would probably expect it to be the best Amateurs and Juniors in attendance.

Playing for the World Championship title.

 

[araytx]

Personally I think since the announcement was so late in the year, an interim amount should be applied..possibly half, so Grandmasters for example would only need 250 to qualify. Then 500 2017 points to qualify for 2018 Worlds...

Not sure I agree with 500 though. The winner of this years Bowling Green Ams for Grandmasters didn't get enough points to qualify for Worlds using the new standard.

That might be because, if I were a middle of the road Am Grandmaster I'm thinking to myself, "I could shoot a 225 in MG1 and get a couple hundred points, or shoot that same 225 in Rec and get over 1000 points. Now let me think."

Some tournaments, for the Winner, could hold a spot in registration for Worlds, same as the last year's winner has a spot held for them.

4 Regionals - 5 spots taken from the pool (Previous champion, 4 regional winners)

I would have no issue with that. A slot for Worlds wouldn't be points based in that scenario, but instead performance based.

Seriously.m we want all that for AM Worlds???

 

[teemkey]

That might be because, if I were a middle of the road Am Grandmaster I'm thinking to myself, "I could shoot a 225 in MG1 and get a couple hundred points, or shoot that same 225 in Rec and get over 1000 points. Now let me think."

...

Hey Aray, I know it wasn't the (exact) issue you were addressing, but do you have any insight into why fewer points are awarded to age protected divisions, and why points diminish as one progresses into older divisions)?

reference

 

[krupicka]

You need to look at that table this way. First look at the Pros playing Am limits. Each age protected has the same limit as a regular Am division.
MA1 - 970
MM1 / MA2 - 935
MG1 / MA3 - 900
MS1 / MA4 - 850

Now look at the points and see that the points for the two divisions with the same rating limits match. Looking at it that way you'd then ask well why do the points diminish as one goes to lower divisions and most will agree you should get rewarded more for the higher divisions.

 

[Karl]

"PDGA Amateur and Jr World Championships"

Try explaining that to an outsider to the sport and they would probably expect it to be the best Amateurs and Juniors in attendance.

Playing for the World Championship title.

Thank you DanJon!

ARay,
When someone wins an Am title they are announced OVER THE PDGA LOUDSPEAKER at the awards ceremony as "(full name), (division) World Champion!". This makes it about as official a world championship title (for each division) as our sport has (regardless of what you say / how you wordsmith it).

 

[ScottyLove]

And when I whip A Ray next week in Madison, I will tell everyone I know that I am The World Champion!... not the winner of the Am Worlds tournament.

 

[1978]

Personally I think since the announcement was so late in the year, an interim amount should be applied..possibly half, so Grandmasters for example would only need 250 to qualify. Then 500 2017 points to qualify for 2018 Worlds...

Not sure I agree with 500 though. The winner of this years Bowling Green Ams for Grandmasters didn't get enough points to qualify for Worlds using the new standard.

Nevermind, I replied with out double checking.

 

[teemkey]

You need to look at that table this way. First look at the Pros playing Am limits. Each age protected has the same limit as a regular Am division.
MA1 - 970
MM1 / MA2 - 935
MG1 / MA3 - 900
MS1 / MA4 - 850

Now look at the points and see that the points for the two divisions with the same rating limits match. Looking at it that way you'd then ask well why do the points diminish as one goes to lower divisions and most will agree you should get rewarded more for the higher divisions.

While that might make sense for rated divisions since Am Worlds only offers MA1, older players are invited in their age protected division.

 

[smarkquart]

I am going back to my original gripe about not making it into this year's tournament. I earned over four times the requirement to get in because I played well - not spectacular, but well - in last year's tournament. I had to play well because I wanted to be in this tournament because my schedule is very limited. I blocked off the whole month to ensure I could play this year.

I am still sitting 10th on the waiting list with only a day left to go.

Now with the increase and missing this year's tournament, I feel like I am being double punished. I am scrambling to find big enough tournaments to play well in that will fit in my schedule. I already have 450 off one tournament and am playing in one in August about the same size. That still puts me about two or three big tournaments short. My wife is upset that I am now blocking off more dates this year, but she understands. The only thing working in my favor is that I could play in Masters next year (I could this year, but there are almost no points in that division) and have a lower points threshold.

Not only is my schedule tight, but I also cannot afford to travel more than a state away. Next year's tournament is still within a day's drive, but I am fearing that tournament will be my last if they start moving it to different parts of the country.

I begrudge or belittle no one who got in, this mess is not your fault, but I am still pissed about the situation. As wrong as it sounds, I do not like the situation that I am in that I have to play more disc golf - the key words there are HAVE TO- in order to participate in an experience that I would normally miss because of location and that I have shown a dedication that I want to go. Not only that, but now there is the added stress of playing well for points and not strictly for the enjoyment of the sport. Last year was a blast because I knew I was going to make my points (again, four times the minimum) and thought with a 100% certainty that I would be playing this year as well and getting points from that.

Now, I am also aware of how hypocritical I could sound if and when I get those points. If I cross over the threshold, do I now have a better chance of ensuring my spot next year so that this does not happen again? What would happen if I am again relegated to the waiting list even after making those points with all the extra effort from the second half of this year? If I do make it in with no problems, am I going to be glad that the minimum was raised?

 

[DirtyMeathook]

That's the misconception. It is NOT Championships of the Amateur and Jr Disc Golf World. Nowhere in the description of the tournament does it come close to near even implying that. The tournament is the "PDGA Amateur and Jr World Championships", aka "Am Worlds." I get the problem. It would be better to rename it "the World Ams" (akin to what "the World Open" would be for the pros).

Could you reword what you are trying to explain here? I don't mean this in a snarky way, but I can't make any sense of your post.

Thank you DanJon!

ARay,
When someone wins an Am title they are announced OVER THE PDGA LOUDSPEAKER at the awards ceremony as "(full name), (division) World Champion!". This makes it about as official a world championship title (for each division) as our sport has (regardless of what you say / how you wordsmith it).

This was my understanding, as well of that of anyone I have spoke to about the event. It is the world championship of amateur disc golfers.

 

[araytx]

Hey Aray, I know it wasn't the (exact) issue you were addressing, but do you have any insight into why fewer points are awarded to age protected divisions, and why points diminish as one progresses into older divisions)?

reference

Yes, two things. Chuck will tell you that some 15 or so years back, they commissioned a valid study and found that for (not just the average but all) disc golfers, you lost X number of strokes per year after age __. (I don't remember the exact numbers -- paging Cgkdisc.) That was how they redefined the original masters age cutoff (it was once 35 years old) and how the additional age-protected divisions came to be. I am assuming (no facts here) that based upon that, the ratings suggestions cut-off numbers (for age-protected) came about.

 

[araytx]

I am going back to my original gripe about not making it into this year's tournament. I earned over four times the requirement to get in because I played well - not spectacular, but well - in last year's tournament. I had to play well because I wanted to be in this tournament because my schedule is very limited. I blocked off the whole month to ensure I could play this year.

I am still sitting 10th on the waiting list with only a day left to go.

Now with the increase and missing this year's tournament, I feel like I am being double punished. I am scrambling to find big enough tournaments to play well in that will fit in my schedule. I already have 450 off one tournament and am playing in one in August about the same size. That still puts me about two or three big tournaments short. My wife is upset that I am now blocking off more dates this year, but she understands. The only thing working in my favor is that I could play in Masters next year (I could this year, but there are almost no points in that division) and have a lower points threshold.

Not only is my schedule tight, but I also cannot afford to travel more than a state away. Next year's tournament is still within a day's drive, but I am fearing that tournament will be my last if they start moving it to different parts of the country.

I begrudge or belittle no one who got in, this mess is not your fault, but I am still pissed about the situation. As wrong as it sounds, I do not like the situation that I am in that I have to play more disc golf - the key words there are HAVE TO- in order to participate in an experience that I would normally miss because of location and that I have shown a dedication that I want to go. Not only that, but now there is the added stress of playing well for points and not strictly for the enjoyment of the sport. Last year was a blast because I knew I was going to make my points (again, four times the minimum) and thought with a 100% certainty that I would be playing this year as well and getting points from that.

Now, I am also aware of how hypocritical I could sound if and when I get those points. If I cross over the threshold, do I now have a better chance of ensuring my spot next year so that this does not happen again? What would happen if I am again relegated to the waiting list even after making those points with all the extra effort from the second half of this year? If I do make it in with no problems, am I going to be glad that the minimum was raised?

Scott, I see the dilemna. If I were you, I'd send a personal email to Graham and to the tour manager (Big Dog) and tell him. Give them the specifics of your situation. I'm not sure how much of these kinds of things they see or know about, with every thing else that is going on. The good thing about your situation is that you sound like you're playing MA1 all the time, and your first invite will be in the MM1, which will be secure if you cross 750, then you'll ALSO get one for MA1 points total if you get to 1500. The BAD thing about your situation is that being in the masters age range precludes you from getting MA2 & MA3 points to count toward an MA1 invite. There has to be a solution somewhere to that loophole favoring some people and disadvantaging others. Once the PDGA starts putting registration priority or ability based upon tourney performance, that MA2/MA3 thing becomes a huge loophole. A 38-yr-old guy can find one big tourney, play Intermediate or Rec, and get those other 1100 points easy -- like the 70th place in Rec or 40th place in Intermediate did at Bowling Green Ams.

 

[araytx]

Could you reword what you are trying to explain here? I don't mean this in a snarky way, but I can't make any sense of your post.



This was my understanding, as well of that of anyone I have spoke to about the event. It is the world championship of amateur disc golfers.

Thank you DanJon!

ARay,
When someone wins an Am title they are announced OVER THE PDGA LOUDSPEAKER at the awards ceremony as "(full name), (division) World Champion!". This makes it about as official a world championship title (for each division) as our sport has (regardless of what you say / how you wordsmith it).

Guys, I hear what you all are saying. It's a purview. If someone wins her division at Texas States, is she the "Texas State Champion"? If someone wins his division at the Texas Amateur Championships, is he the "Texas Amateur Champion"? hardly. That's why I see it the same way with Worlds. Yes, guys they may be announced over the loudspeaker as "the world champion of ______," but to me it's the champion or winner of the Am Worlds Tournament. Don't get me wrong, a very prestigious title to have, but not how I see it. Add in all the lack of qualifying stuff and then what??? -- for example there'll be players that Scott E. & I (see below) don't have to face because they didn't make the registration window. After he kicks everyone's butt, does that really make him the World Champion?

Given all the format issues for the Am Worlds as it is, I'd be for renaming it the "PDGA World Ams and World Jrs" (like BG Ams)

And when I whip A Ray next week in Madison, I will tell everyone I know that I am The World Champion!... not the winner of the Am Worlds tournament.

Dang, Elam, that's rough -- gunning for me like that. I think there's a guy from France, one from Ohio, one from Colorado, 4 other Worlds title holders, and a couple 49-yr-olds you need to worry about before worrying about me. Whipping my butt might not mean more than 25th or 30th place.

 

[biscoe]

The BAD thing about your situation is that being in the masters age range precludes you from getting MA2 & MA3 points to count toward an MA1 invite. There has to be a solution somewhere to that loophole favoring some people and disadvantaging others.

Super simple solution= no points for divisions not held at worlds.

 

[araytx]

Super simple solution= no points for divisions not held at worlds.

not so simple ... would you propose with that solution to then REQUIRE TDs at all tournaments to offer all divisions even if they don't get 3 players?? Occasionally players don't have a choice.

The lady who won the Am points race for senior grandmasters plays around here. She rarely gets her division, so she's often in MA3, MA2, FA1, MM1, MG1 etc. It would be really unfair to tell her she can't get MA2 and MA3 points given she's a woman having to play there mostly because very few tourneys except Worlds offer FS1.

 

[DanJon]

So let people earn points in the division they signed up for in those cases.

 

[araytx]

So let people earn points in the division they signed up for in those cases.

Huh?? I think you're off topic, or missing this point. He was proposing not counting your total number of points (combined) for a Worlds invite. The current rule is ALL Am points in any division count toward your home (base) division total for a Worlds invite. We already earn points in the division you signed up for so that IS the current rule already, but since Worlds doesn't have some divisions (MA2, MA3 among others), the PDGA counts ALL points toward your home division invite.

My response was that to propose that as the rule would severely disadvantage Am women, particularly age-protected women, because they often HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE but to play in men's divisions. To then say their earned points won't count towards a Worlds invite would be wholly unfair -- and probably a bit discriminatory.

 

[filobedo]

I am going back to my original gripe about not making it into this year's tournament. I earned over four times the requirement to get in because I played well - not spectacular, but well - in last year's tournament. I had to play well because I wanted to be in this tournament because my schedule is very limited. I blocked off the whole month to ensure I could play this year.

I am still sitting 10th on the waiting list with only a day left to go.

Now with the increase and missing this year's tournament, I feel like I am being double punished. I am scrambling to find big enough tournaments to play well in that will fit in my schedule. I already have 450 off one tournament and am playing in one in August about the same size. That still puts me about two or three big tournaments short. My wife is upset that I am now blocking off more dates this year, but she understands. The only thing working in my favor is that I could play in Masters next year (I could this year, but there are almost no points in that division) and have a lower points threshold.



Not only is my schedule tight, but I also cannot afford to travel more than a state away. Next year's tournament is still within a day's drive, but I am fearing that tournament will be my last if they start moving it to different parts of the country.

I begrudge or belittle no one who got in, this mess is not your fault, but I am still pissed about the situation. As wrong as it sounds, I do not like the situation that I am in that I have to play more disc golf - the key words there are HAVE TO- in order to participate in an experience that I would normally miss because of location and that I have shown a dedication that I want to go. Not only that, but now there is the added stress of playing well for points and not strictly for the enjoyment of the sport. Last year was a blast because I knew I was going to make my points (again, four times the minimum) and thought with a 100% certainty that I would be playing this year as well and getting points from that.

Now, I am also aware of how hypocritical I could sound if and when I get those points. If I cross over the threshold, do I now have a better chance of ensuring my spot next year so that this does not happen again? What would happen if I am again relegated to the waiting list even after making those points with all the extra effort from the second half of this year? If I do make it in with no problems, am I going to be glad that the minimum was raised?

Anyone that drops out this year unless due to injury or family, personal emergency or other reasonable reasons should be not given the opportunity to play for the next two years.