Or they did consider those divisions, and don't expect that the effects will be detrimental to the divisions. Or that whatever the effects, they are not undesirable.
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2018 Competition Rules Changes
- Thread starter krupicka
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Or they did consider those divisions, and don't expect that the effects will be detrimental to the divisions. Or that whatever the effects, they are not undesirable.
I can't answer that...but it will hit the FPO hardest of all in markets below the largest. I can't see how that would not be undesirable.
The PTBs have their agenda, which we can speculate on but probably won't ever really know (even if one of them 'comes on here' and says something...because it may be 'partial truth at best'), but I DO know that some TDs in my area will be just slightly less happy. As someone who's more times than not plays Pro, cashes, declines money, takes merch (and thus affords the TDs to "keep the diff") they now won't be able to do this because I'll be playing Am this year (once I heal).
Of course the whole "pro / am" thing is a big farce; why don't we just all play in our respective age-groups and let those who want to gamble do 'side bets' and those (like me) who don't don't?
And I doubt that I'm the only person in this situation - so a lot of TDs will be affected (not in a good way) just a little. IMO not the best move the PTBs ever made....
Of course the whole "pro / am" thing is a big farce; why don't we just all play in our respective age-groups and let those who want to gamble do 'side bets' and those (like me) who don't don't?
And I doubt that I'm the only person in this situation - so a lot of TDs will be affected (not in a good way) just a little. IMO not the best move the PTBs ever made....
Guess I don't see the desirability of players not skilled enough to compete in a pro division being compelled or outright bribed to play there. If a local area doesn't have enough players to field a sufficient FPO (or MPM or MPG), the answer isn't to incentivize players who don't belong (or don't want to turn pro) to play "up".
And if it's a matter of the amateurs wanting to play for the experience but not wanting to pay full price to get no reward, that's where the trophy-only entry fee comes into play. Pay 1/3 to 1/2 the price to get the experience they seek. If they want to win something, they can play amateur or make the plunge and turn pro.
So you don't see how a woman rated like 860 would move up and play pro when the two pros signed up are rated in the 880s? On most courses, that's a difference of like 2 strokes. So let's say there are 6 women signed up, two 880's one 860, and three that are 825. You see no reason why the 860 rated AM might move up into the pro field rather than play in FA1 with three player's rated significantly lower? So that player will bag and beat those three handily when she could have competed with us.
Take that same 860 player and throw them in FPO at Worlds or even an NT, how do you think they fair?
If the argument then turns to well maybe the 880 players shouldn't be pro, well then why is the cutoff for Pro's playing AM 875 for women. Seems like the pdga thinks that an 875 player should be a pro.
Then let's talk about why the PDGA is so concerned about AMs playing Pro, but have no issues with cashing Pros playing AM. Seems a little backasswards to me.
brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
I see an easy way to end this debate. Juniors should be the only true "amateurs". Let everyone else be paid out in cash and change the name to the PDGA Advanced World Championships...
TDs would be out some cash, so let them take a small 5 or 10%(or whatever if it needs to be higher) of the overall purse for expenses, time and effort.
TDs would be out some cash, so let them take a small 5 or 10%(or whatever if it needs to be higher) of the overall purse for expenses, time and effort.
_MTL_
Flippy Flopper
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2008
- Messages
- 3,514
Retention rates.
Retention rates of ams will always be all over the place. Some people get really into the sport and then lose interest. That's with any product / hobby. But if you are playing professional, this shows you had a commitment to the game. Very few people just play for a year or so casually and then start cashing as a pro and then quit the game. To do that, this takes incredible natural skill and the amount of people with that skill that leave the game are few.
The average am to pro story starts with players playing PDGA events and getting better and better and eventually playing open. Look at Wysocki, McBeth and other big name pros and you will see them playing am in their history.
To get to a professional level, even on the local level only, takes that time and commitment to the sport.
Now, let's say you own a business and you have a very dedicated customer who has spent a lot of money on your product / service. All the sudden, they stop. Why? You will want to know why. You are more concerned why they stopped. Sure, you are concerned why the guy who used you once or twice stopped, but why would someone love your product and then all of the sudden stop. That's what the thought process behind this is.
I'm not saying I 100% agree with the execution, but retention of our members has always been an issue.
But, in this case it is entire classes of customers (Pro and Am) that are involved. In both classes are very dedicated customers who have spent a lot of money on the product for ten or more years.
One class of customer in the PDGA should not be given consideration over another...especially when the other class comprises 75 percent of the organization.
I'll continue to play. I love the game.
Actually, a better way would be to make all Amateur events "True" amateur events and Am's only get trophies, that would encourage people to move up. That said none of this will happen because everyone knows that without AMs and their merch payouts there would be no money at all in disc golf. The TDs/Vendors/Clubs would no longer have an income as you stated.
Even the Disc Golf PRO Tour that was introduced to cater to Pros and be a PROFESSIONAL tour is making the TDs of those events have an AM side if they did not in the past. Why because even that tour would be going nowhere if it wasn't for the AMs.
"To get to a professional level, even on the local level only, takes that time and commitment to the sport."
MTL, I'm glad you said "professional level" and not "being a pro" (or some such), because being a PDGA "pro" is NOT so big a deal. All you have to do is claim such, etc. It would be interesting to see what the mean and median 'rating' is for all "pros" (well, at least male 'pros'). I'm guessing it's not all that high....
MTL, I'm glad you said "professional level" and not "being a pro" (or some such), because being a PDGA "pro" is NOT so big a deal. All you have to do is claim such, etc. It would be interesting to see what the mean and median 'rating' is for all "pros" (well, at least male 'pros'). I'm guessing it's not all that high....
brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
I don't understand this trophy only mentality. True amateurism hardly exists in the world outside of youth organizations and the NCAA and even the college athletes receive compensation...
True amateur does not mean that they aren't allowed to receive player's packs. Player's packs and trophies that equal the amount of the entry fee. Player's still get compensated from the get and receive a trophy if they play well enough.
I believe I read somewhere that 89 percent of males that are classified as a pro are below the cutoff to play AM which is 970. So nearly all cashing male pros can play AM.
brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
Personally, I don't really want players packs either. Very rarely do I receive a disc I want or need and cannot stand trying to sell plastic. Most of the time, unless its a new/pre-release disc, they just sit in my trunk for a couple months till I wind up selling 'em for wholesale prices or just give them to somebody.
I play for the competition. So just tell me how much the TDs time is worth to him, and I will decide if that amount is reasonable for me to pay.
I wonder how much of the big manufacturers annual sales come from tourney vending?...
I play for the competition. So just tell me how much the TDs time is worth to him, and I will decide if that amount is reasonable for me to pay.
I wonder how much of the big manufacturers annual sales come from tourney vending?...
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brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
Does that include the age-protected males?...
_MTL_
Flippy Flopper
- Joined
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I won a 4 round B Tier in open this year and I'm sub 970.
Are you classified as pro or am?
_MTL_
Flippy Flopper
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2008
- Messages
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pro.
I am not sure on that. I am not the one that looked it up and did the math. I posted it as I read it. It just said that there was 11,000 and something Pros and that over 10,000 could still play AM. Those are not the exact numbers but close I can't remember them exactly at the moment. It did up being 89% though. Not sure if that includes age protected or not. I'm assuming it does because I don't think they would see a difference on the pdga site unless they looked at each player.
Unfortunately there is always going to be people that are happy no matter what is set up, but I think it should be whatever benefits the overall growth of the sport. I'm sure there are a large number of AMs that would rather get paid on the front end and take trophies over having 975 rated player's staying in AM because they walk away with hundreds of dollars in merch at every event.
