[Help] Altitude and Stability

[Doofenshmirtz]

I will be playing a few rounds on Saturday at a course that starts at an elevation of about 9000 feet above sea level. Almost all of my experience is at an elevation of about 80 feet above sea level. So here's my questions as I select discs to put in my travel bag: What can I expect as far as a change in stability of my discs? Are drivers affected more than mids? Is there a general way to quantify the different flight characteristics like add 2 to the HSS and LSS numbers and/or subract 2 from glide, etc? Or even more specifice to my bag: Core, Wasp, Underworld, Flippy GStar Tern, somewhat overstable Flow, Volt, Amp - how will these discs fly differently 1.7 miles further up in the atmosphere than I am used to seeing them fly?

 

[Twmccoy]

Bring your whole gamut of discs and try to take some practice throws before you play. That'll give you a pretty good idea of what's up with stability in places like the mountains of CO, (which is where I'm assuming you're playing).

Short answer is that discs will fly more stable at higher elevations. Noticeably so.

 

[markmcc]

I have spent my summer at 10,000 feet in Leadville Colorado. I've played courses all over this part of the state at elevations from 6000 feet to 10,200. I have relied heavily on a 153 gr. Lat 64 Diamond, which is an understable disc in their "easy to throw" line. It has been my go-to driver for uphill and level holes. I use a Lat 64 Jade for headwind and downhill throws. These are significantly less stable than the discs I would use in the same situations at sea level.

I'll be interested to see how they fly for me when I head back to Texas later this week...

 

[slowplastic]

I've been throwing at 4,500' after sea level. You'll have way more extreme findings than me. I also throw a Core, it's awesome at this height. Basically mids/putters you can mash on 100%, they still glide but won't burn, and will get out there on speed. I can throw mids and putters at least as far as at sea level, but I can absolutely hammer on them. But I'd say HSS = +0.5-1, LSS is the same for mids (if HSS accentuates hyzer then fade will increase though). Putters are just more HSS trustworthy. I want to throw my mids and putters even more at this elevation because I really really trust them.

Neutral and turning fairways bomb. I feel like they are HSS = +1. Again they just go at least as far and are more trustworthy, you can mash on them. Moderately overstable, like a beefy Teebird, does not go as far because the increased HSS eats the glide. Very OS will be a tiny bit shorter, if you rely on hammering it out there on speed (like a Firebird).

High speed stuff is the biggest difference. These are HSS = +2, LSS = +1. Basically for me, they fly the same distance as they did at sea level, but the flight characteristics as if I threw them ~40' shorter (a 400' shot at 4500' has the same flight path as a 360' shot at sea level). So this means that some discs bomb while going dead straight. But, discs that just barely turned at sea level are now too beefy to get into the glide phase, and I lost a lot of distance. Also my turnover drivers are now -0.5/2 type of flights. I added in my roller Vulcan from sea level, it's -2/2 for hyzer flip to turn to fade shots now.

You'll probably lose a lot more glide than I did. I have found that slow, neutral discs are incredible. High speed discs that are barely overstable are most finicky. Make sure you bring neutral stuff, and very understable stuff. Discs that were just barely overstable will likely lose a ton of distance and overlap with your truly overstable discs.

You may also have a completely different experience if you lose way more glide at that elevation. Definitely throw in a field before your round. And get used to not throwing as many hyzer flips.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Well, unfortunately, I only get to bring a travel kit. I'd love to bring the whole bag, but I am limited to about 11 discs total. I've got my Underworld, Relay, Amp, Volt, Flippy Tern and Octane. BTW, it will be at Solitude Mountain Resort in Utah.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

I've been throwing at 4,500' after sea level . . .

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. I will report back after playing Solitude and give my impressions of the effect on the discs that I take. I may have to consider taking that 136g GStarlite Destroyer now.

 

[bobmcnelly]

I've played disc golf at over 7,000 feet more than I have under 7,000 feet. When I go to sea level, I have to almost rethink my game and my bag.

As far as your disc selection, just adjust all your discs over a slot and pull any super OS discs unless your throwing over 450 feet. So your normal understable discs will be more of your stable discs and your stable discs will be your OS discs.

I've never really noticed a specific difference between Mids and drivers but there could be. Honestly I don't have a ton of experience throwing at sea level.

 

[jdw80550]

So I live at 4,800' and play 7,000+' courses regularly.
Here is my bag at 4,800'
-Defender, Crank, Pred, Teebird, Undertow, Comet, Buzzz, Wasp, Scale, Wizard

Bag at 7,000+
-Crank, Teebird, Undertow, Comet, Wasp, Wizard

 

[mattrowe]

I live in the Bay Area, and go up to Tahoe once or twice a summer (elevation: 6,200'). It's a very different game... My biggest recommendation is: bring that dusty/beat DX leopard that you have in the basement that you were planning on giving to a beginner. My second biggest recommendation is: try to do at least 15 minutes of field work before teeing off, the additional overstability is going to be a big surprise!

 

[Javy818]

I've played a couple of mountain courses this year. Beaver Ranch in Colorado and Mt Waterman in Los Angeles are above 8000' and Sky High is mid 7000'.

Firebirds are useless up there. I bring the following that have given me success and 1 ace so far!

Putters for driving are the Legacy Hunter and MVP Ion. I also putt with both to keep the bag light.

Miss I throw the Envy for more stability, a beat up Pinnacle Ghost for flex lines.

Drivers. I take my Icon Patriot and it is $$$ up there. I park a ton of holes AND I got an Ace a month ago with it on an uphill turn shot. I also throw a flippy Outlaw and sidearm with it pretty well.

Have fun and disc down on cliffs cause the discs fly further up there!

 

[Whippetgood]

Well, unfortunately, I only get to bring a travel kit. I'd love to bring the whole bag, but I am limited to about 11 discs total. I've got my Underworld, Relay, Amp, Volt, Flippy Tern and Octane. BTW, it will be at Solitude Mountain Resort in Utah.

I throw more light discs and blizzard plastic at Solitude than I do at any other course. They will really help on the uphill shots. The difficult X factor for Solitude is the wind. On really windy days I have to throw heavier discs. Enjoy your time at Soli. It is a gem that I am happy to be an hour from.

 

[mfcastillo17]

i live at 6000' and play most of the summer at the ski resorts 9000+. In fact, this weekend we're hosting a tournament at our new course that tops out at 11,564'. It may not be in your bag of tricks, but being able to throw both forehand and backhand is very helpful at elevation with the discs' tendency to want to hyzer to the ground. If you don't have both throws in your arsenal, bring light, understable plastic, although winds on mountain courses can be tricky and will even flip even the most stable of discs if not read right. The updrafts on some of the downhill shots are tough to read and can send you in the wrong direction quickly!

 

[PMantle]

He has both.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

You'll probably lose a lot more glide than I did.

I will be playing on Saturday morning and have been thinking about it for a couple of days and it dawned on me that maybe the difference in stability is better described as a difference in the relative Speed rating at high altitude. If the effect is simply due to less dense air, then you should be able to make up for this with speed (obviously easier said that done). Maybe what is really going on is that a putter starts flying like a mid, a mid like a fairway driver and so forth. So an slow understable disc starts acting like a faster understable disc, you just have to throw it harder.

I'm just guessing here and will try to figure this out when I start throwing on Saturday. My thought is that at higher altitude, a disc has to travel faster to generate the same amount of lift that it would have at a lower altitude and once it gets to that faster travel speed, it should act like it does at the lower speed at sea level. Of course, overthrowing a short hole won't work out well, so the characterization of change in stability is probably a more useful reference in those situations. But for distance throws, just changing to a speed 9 disc and treating it like your speed 12 disc (or whatever the appropriate adjustment is) might be a good way to approach the shot.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah that's kind of how I have been thinking about it. Less air density, so it thinks it's going slower. But, it also takes longer to slow down so it covers a lot of ground still even with less lift.

Let's take the Core, for example. At sea level I can throw it 330', but it's a hyzer flip and it turns, then drifts back. It can be touchy. I'd rather throw it 70% power and let it go ~300', because I trust it there (I can overpower it, but it gets sketchier). At 4500', I can throw it 80%+ and I know it won't turn over from a slight hyzer, and it will laser beam out there. It still glides, but it also is using a bit more speed...and doesn't feel like it's being overpowered. It's more consistent for me to throw it 330' at altitude than sea level, but I can get it that distance at both, and it's straighter at altitude.

I've definitely been throwing discs on speed a bit more, and mids/fairways seem to excel at that. Fast discs will also cover a ton of ground, I find their flight path changed a bit (like I said they flew like they lost 40' of power for me, while still getting the same distance), but they didn't feel much different to throw.

 

[slowplastic]

In my experience so far, I also think that players with lower arm speed will lose distance at altitude. Maybe there are even less stable discs they can use...but players under 300', especially those under 275' (lots of casual players are), seem to have much more trouble and more fade than at lower altitude. The funny thing is that for the sloppy FH players, it's probably easier for them to throw. The discs stable up instead of cut rolling, and FH mashers tend to still get some speed on the disc even if it's not that clean. It's not night and day differences for these types of players who don't have the consistency, but it is there.

 

[Stevo]

I live in Houston (53') and just spent 4 days in the Denver area at Phantom Falls, Bucksnort, Beaver Ranch, etc. (5,000' - 8,000'). This was my first time playing in this kind of elevation, so I brought my whole bag. In Houston, I can throw about 400-420' max with Outlaws, Rivals/FDs to about 375', Ghosts/Gauge to 325'ish, and putters to 275'ish.

When I was looking at the holes off the tee, I would take my first instinct and go less stable. If it was a Ghost shot, I'd throw a Gauge. Rival shot, I'd throw and FD. I really didn't use my Outlaws, but switched to a Nemesis instead. In Houston, a shot I would normally throw a Nemesis on a 45* hyzerflip, I had to throw the same disc flat for the same line. It was a pretty painless transition. Only took a few throws to adapt.

Where I really struggled was putting and upshots. I was hitting high on a good amount of my putts and long putts faded off left of the basket earlier, so a lot of weak side spit outs from 30-40'. I was leaving putter upshots left quite often. Where I would throw my putter flat for an easy 100-120' upshot, I was finishing left. If I threw with more of an anny, they would glide out and go long.

To top all of this off, I rarely play on anything more than a small hill (H-Town is painfully flat). Playing mountain courses really opened my eyes.

 

[jtencer]

When I moved from sea level to about 5500' I switched to using an old Valk as my primary driver.

 

[SaxMan]

I live in Houston (53') and just spent 4 days in the Denver area at Phantom Falls, Bucksnort, Beaver Ranch, etc. (5,000' - 8,000'). This was my first time playing in this kind of elevation, so I brought my whole bag. In Houston, I can throw about 400-420' max with Outlaws, Rivals/FDs to about 375', Ghosts/Gauge to 325'ish, and putters to 275'ish.

When I was looking at the holes off the tee, I would take my first instinct and go less stable. If it was a Ghost shot, I'd throw a Gauge. Rival shot, I'd throw and FD. I really didn't use my Outlaws, but switched to a Nemesis instead. In Houston, a shot I would normally throw a Nemesis on a 45* hyzerflip, I had to throw the same disc flat for the same line. It was a pretty painless transition. Only took a few throws to adapt.

Where I really struggled was putting and upshots. I was hitting high on a good amount of my putts and long putts faded off left of the basket earlier, so a lot of weak side spit outs from 30-40'. I was leaving putter upshots left quite often. Where I would throw my putter flat for an easy 100-120' upshot, I was finishing left. If I threw with more of an anny, they would glide out and go long.

To top all of this off, I rarely play on anything more than a small hill (H-Town is painfully flat). Playing mountain courses really opened my eyes.

So did you lose distance? If so how much? Oh and beaver ranch rules! One of the holes is dedicated to my best friend who passed away

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Yeah that's kind of how I have been thinking about it. Less air density, so it thinks it's going slower. But, it also takes longer to slow down so it covers a lot of ground still even with less lift.

After playing two rounds at Solitude starting around 9,000 feet and ending around 7,200 ft, my observations are kind of mixed. Unfortunately, there was so much downhill on the throws, that it is hard to evaluate how the altitude affected distance. The throws were going so far due to the elevation change that I can't speak to that issue much although it did seem like I was getting a little less glide on the one or two more-or-less level holes.

As to stability, the elevation had a definite affect. At that elevation, my flippiest GStar Tern, which usually flies with what I would call a -4 HSS +1 LSS rating flew more like -1 HSS and +1 LSS, it was very much like a 14 speed version of itself. My fairway drivers didn't seem to be affected quite as much and this may be because the downhill holes allowed them to keep their speed up longer (and many times until they hit something). They did mostly act a bit more overstable. This was noticeable with my Volt, Underworld and Amp, but less so with my Servo. My Servo just turned into a longer straight disc, again, probably due to its use on mostly downhill throws. I had expected the Servo to be more overstable, but, if it was, I really didn't notice it. My mids were just longer, but again, I had no real opportunities on that course to throw them at full power. Most of my throws with mids were at 1/2 power or less.