Am world BAGGERS

[mashnut]

Joseph Stettinger
Thank you. Maybe next year I can win it
Sunday at 12:28pm

Does this mean he cant accept cash in open? What happens if you do you can not be Am? who polices that? ive heard of people reserving there status to train for big tournys but ive never seen anyone do it

If you accept cash in a PDGA sanctioned event, you lose your amateur status (though you can still play non-major events in amateur divisions if your rating falls below certain cutoffs). That status is easy for a TD to look up to see if you're eligible for an amateur division.

 

[joshmo65]

If you accept cash in a PDGA sanctioned event, you lose your amateur status

Note, this should be PDGA sanctioned tournament. Ams are allowed to accept cash in leagues without losing their amateur status.

The PDGA is not going to track payouts for leagues. It's up to the League Directors how they wish to go about handling their leagues (meaning Ams can accept cash without losing Am status).

http://www.pdga.com/your-league-now-pdga-ratings

 

[ejvogie]

Note, this should be PDGA sanctioned tournament. Ams are allowed to accept cash in leagues without losing their amateur status.



http://www.pdga.com/your-league-now-pdga-ratings

"The PDGA is not going to track payouts for leagues. It's up to the League Directors how they wish to go about handling their leagues (meaning Ams can accept cash without losing Am status)."

 

[ChrisWoj]

Let me put this plain and simple for you all:

Not a single person here has a right to complain about how the PDGA decides Pro and Am status more than me.

Period. End of story. Here's why:
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/13029 - 2008 USADGC
http://www.pdga.com/player_stats/39453/2007 - 2007 Daemon Stahlin statistics
http://www.pdga.com/player_stats/39453/2006 - 2006 Daemon Stahlin statistics
http://www.pdga.com/player_stats/29633/2006 - 2006 Mark Roberts statistics
http://www.pdga.com/player_stats/29633/2005 - 2005 Mark Roberts statistics
http://www.pdga.com/player_stats/29633/2004 - 2004 Mark Roberts statistics

Seriously, you guys are complaining about people that, BY PDGA RULES, are retaining their amateur disc golf status. They are not accepting cash in sanctioned events. Okay, so you don't think this is an amateur or that is an amateur. Whatever. What matters is what the PDGA says is an amateur. The times we really should put up a major league fuss is when the PDGA goes completely against their own pre-set rules and regulations and allows things to happen that shouldn't.

 

[mashnut]

That's not on the PDGA, that's on a TD who doesn't do the work to make sure people are eligible for the division they're signed up in. Not much the PDGA can do from afar, especially since they wouldn't even know about it until after the event was already over.

 

[ChrisWoj]

That's not on the PDGA, that's on a TD who doesn't do the work to make sure people are eligible for the division they're signed up in. Not much the PDGA can do from afar, especially since they wouldn't even know about it until after the event was already over.

This was NOT on the TD. This WAS on the PDGA. The PDGA was ASKED if those guys could compete and allowed it. They were given invites based on playing Am at some A Tiers I believe and they asked if they could compete. They were told yes, since they received invites by placing high at an am event - the PDGA would allow it despite their accepting cash. Actually that may only be Daemon. Mark Roberts may have specifically petitioned for his Amateur status back because he had a poor 2007 season after accepting cash for YEARS, and they allowed it.

I didn't make any cash last year, PDGA. Can I have my Amateur status back as well?

 

[mashnut]

That wasn't in your original post, if that's true then you do have a valid complaint. Where did you get that information?

 

[ChrisWoj]

And I am NOT AT ALL blaming Mark or Daemon for this. I mean yeah at the time I was annoyed - but they played by the system. I remember Daemon pretty much just shrugged and said, cool - if they're allowing it I'd love another shot at a title. If they came over and said "Hey Woj you can go for the US Amateur title next year, we're cool with it." - I'd probably sign up for AmNats and play too, bagger cries be damned. AmNats is too fun to pass up.

 

[ChrisWoj]

That wasn't in your original post, if that's true then you do have a valid complaint. Where did you get that information?

The mouths of the players themselves in 2008. I may be off about minor details, but I know Daemon asked the PDGA about it after he was invited based on his BG Ams performance.

 

[Karl]

Well,
---"Pro" & "Am" separate skill levels in a way that is immediately clear to anyone, in or out of the sport.
---"Pro" confers a level of prestige, at the very least feeding the egos of those players.
---Pro/Am gives a justification for the payment system. In any other system, it might be harder to allow cash payments to the top division, and require merch to all others. And the wholesale/retail margin on merch underwrites the tournament structure. Any other division of skill levels would have to re-address the rewards system.
---"Pro" & "Am" are conveniently short words.

David,

It's my opinion that those 'reasons' (to use Pros / AMs as a 'split-out' of players) are pretty true but if that's the best WE (as a sport) can do we're pretty weak.

Point 1: Out of 3548 registered "Pros", 123 of them are actually rated higher than the highest "AM". One could believe that 3425 "Pros" are deluding themselves .
Point 2: No argument here...and 'big time' on the ego part.
Point 3: My point exactly! Since the whole payout system is goofy, and most people won't just "change the payout system", change something that WILL have an tacit (or otherwise) affect on changing the payout system!
Point 4: Ya got me there!

Karl
Ps: Enough thread drifts (off of the original OP) to choke a horse, so I think I'll leave....

 

[JC17393]

The mouths of the players themselves in 2008. I may be off about minor details, but I know Daemon asked the PDGA about it after he was invited based on his BG Ams performance.

Wasn't that whole thing the result of the amnesty year? When, one time only, the PDGA allowed anyone who wanted to revert back to am status to do so with no strings attached. All they had to do was renew as an amateur and they were considered amateur again (until they cashed in a pro division again). I believe this was in conjunction with introducing the pros-playing-am rule (<970 could play MA1, <935 could play MA2, etc). The whole idea was to allow for players that weren't rated to compete in pro divisions to move back down where their ratings indicated they should be.

So what probably happened was Daemon and Mark, along with countless others, renewed their PDGA membership that year as amateurs. Most pros I know that did that did so simply to save the $20-25 difference in renewal price, then went back to playing Open and taking cash. Some obviously stuck with their am status for a while (perhaps to this day) since they were the ones the PDGA was targeting with the whole campaign. And then there were people like Daemon and Mark who took advantage of the opportunity and moved back to the am ranks and played am majors despite having cashed in pro events. It was a loophole, and it didn't last long (if anyone was taking advantage of it for the "wrong" reasons, they're done doing so by now).

 

[smyith]

Wasn't that whole thing the result of the amnesty year? When, one time only, the PDGA allowed anyone who wanted to revert back to am status to do so with no strings attached. All they had to do was renew as an amateur and they were considered amateur again (until they cashed in a pro division again). I believe this was in conjunction with introducing the pros-playing-am rule (<970 could play MA1, <935 could play MA2, etc). The whole idea was to allow for players that weren't rated to compete in pro divisions to move back down where their ratings indicated they should be.

i forgot about that. and you may be right

Most pros I know that did that did so simply to save the $20-25 difference in renewal price, then went back to playing Open and taking cash.

i have been told (idk for sure myself) but when you take cash and become pro they take the upgrade fee (price diff) out of your payout. but since i have never done it myslef i can't see for 100%

 

[mashnut]

I'm fairly certain that's not true, you don't pay the higher membership fee until you renew the next year.

 

[smyith]

I'm fairly certain that's not true, you don't pay the higher membership fee until you renew the next year.

thats what i had thought too but someone recently told me different and i never remember to ask anyone who has moved up

 

[DavidSauls]

Karl, I wasn't saying those are good reasons or a conclusive argument for using the Pro/Am labels. Just that those are some benefits to doing so. A little, I hope, tongue-in-cheek. Some might say that, if those are the best reasons, that in itself is an argument against continuing with the "Pro/Am" divide.

 

[ChrisWoj]

thats what i had thought too but someone recently told me different and i never remember to ask anyone who has moved up

I have never heard of that. I know when I accepted cash for the first time it didn't happen to me. Never heard of any TD taking $25 out of someone's payout to send it to the PDGA either.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Wasn't that whole thing the result of the amnesty year? When, one time only, the PDGA allowed anyone who wanted to revert back to am status to do so with no strings attached. All they had to do was renew as an amateur and they were considered amateur again (until they cashed in a pro division again). I believe this was in conjunction with introducing the pros-playing-am rule (<970 could play MA1, <935 could play MA2, etc). The whole idea was to allow for players that weren't rated to compete in pro divisions to move back down where their ratings indicated they should be.

So what probably happened was Daemon and Mark, along with countless others, renewed their PDGA membership that year as amateurs. Most pros I know that did that did so simply to save the $20-25 difference in renewal price, then went back to playing Open and taking cash. Some obviously stuck with their am status for a while (perhaps to this day) since they were the ones the PDGA was targeting with the whole campaign. And then there were people like Daemon and Mark who took advantage of the opportunity and moved back to the am ranks and played am majors despite having cashed in pro events. It was a loophole, and it didn't last long (if anyone was taking advantage of it for the "wrong" reasons, they're done doing so by now).

You may well be right about that. I was an am at the time, so obviously didn't know anything about the moving-backward clause they apparently had going. Though I do know you could play Am as a pro before that - they didn't change that. They just changed the rating limit from 950 to 970.

 

[JC17393]

thats what i had thought too but someone recently told me different and i never remember to ask anyone who has moved up

I know I did not have to make up the difference when I cashed for the first time. That was in 2006. The rules have not changed in the meantime as far as I know.

Besides, how would the PDGA go about recouping that money? Instruct the TD to withhold it and submit it with the rest of the event fees? Having TDed PDGAs for a decade now, I've never been asked to withhold prizes or portions of prizes by the PDGA for that or any purpose.

The "savings" is a one time thing (or in the case of the amnesty year, possibly a two-time thing). I don't think the PDGA is sweating the few hundred dollars they might be out because of first-time cashers each year.

 

[JC17393]

You may well be right about that. I was an am at the time, so obviously didn't know anything about the moving-backward clause they apparently had going. Though I do know you could play Am as a pro before that - they didn't change that. They just changed the rating limit from 950 to 970.

Went and did a little research to figure out the time line of the amnesty.

2006 - Pros Playing Am was implemented. The ratings breaks at the time were 955 for MA1, 915 for MA2.

November/December 2006 - Amnesty period. Any player renewing membership for 2007 prior to January 1, 2007 was allowed to renew as an amateur regardless of previous status. Not coincidentally, the Pro membership fee went up from $50 to $75 (and ams from $30 to $50) on January 1, 2007.

2008 - Ratings breaks changed to <970 for MA1, <935 for MA2, etc.

 

[Lefty23899]

I didn't make any cash last year, PDGA. Can I have my Amateur status back as well?

Short answer: yes. Don't cash for a year and let your rating drop to 969 and you're golden

http://www.pdga.com/faq/pdga-tour/reclassification