American Disc Golf Tour

[ru4por]

The dumbest thing is the initial folly---that disc golf can be, should be, a mainstream spectator sport. And that the kind of production the ADGT came up with, even if it were done impeccably, would spur that.

At a great venue on a gorgeous Sunday afternoon, in a metropolitan area of a half million and an hour from the disc golf hotbed of Charlotte, they drew......10 spectators who weren't already there, to play or with the players?

My convictions remain that disc golf will never be a mainstream spectator sport---but that, should I be wrong and the day come that it is big enough and interesting enough to entertain ESPN's audience, they'll pay us. We won't have to pay them.

(serious, not trolling)

What do you consider "mainstream"?

I consider events even as poorly attended as NCAA Women's sports (not making a joke or demeaning, just observing) to be "mainstream" events, and we have more spectators at our biggest events than the average NCAA Softball game.

If your definition is in the same ballpark as mine I think we have a mainstream capable sport - I by no means think we're going to be a "Major" sport (NFL, MLB, NASCAR, NBA) in our lifetimes - but mainstream recognition is on the horizon. It's easier now than in the past to achieve that.

I don't think David is trolling and I really think his point is on mark. Having an exception in our "biggest events" and the average NCAA softball game is a misleading statement. Given there are hundreds of tier A's that are often attended by single digit spectators and thousands of NCAA softball games with significantly more, I think this demonstrates David's point. Disc golf is not even in the mainstream's consciousness. Everyone know what softball is, few have even heard of disc golf. In addition I think the game, where it is played, it's reputation (deserved or not) and the current tour configuration are only the initial hurdles to any viable mainstream spectatorship. I think it would be great to build the game to the point where major's were great for fans. But, the entire entertainment presentation needs to be looked at. Attending a PGA event is an entertainment experience. The game has come a long way, but it is still a very small niche sport.

 

[DavidSauls]

Regardless of how any of us define "mainstream" or desire to get there, it seems pretty clear what the ADGT meant.

 

[lyleoross]

I'm as pessimistic about grandiose views as the next, more than most. Five years ago I laughed at the guys who said we'd have modern ads and live broadcasts, internet or otherwise. I also quite understand the limitations of a participation sport with limited participation slots. But the revenue streams are growing in ways that I didn't see, yet should have. The sport is maturing. When you have an audience willing to watch the EO the way it happened in 2015, your dynamic is changing. Will that happen here in the US? Too early to tell, but they watch handball in Europe, and track and field which has zero audience in non Olympic years in the US, has a full time television audience there. I could envision Europe being the breakthrough audience for the sport. If that happens, our dominance of the sport will be over. Heck, it's already being challenged. I would have never said there'd be an audience for our sport or that anyone, as in zero people, would ever pay to watch.

BTW, If I ran a major, I'd cut the player packages to zero, and make an audience package that went to paying ticket holders. Be an interesting experiment.

 

[Improbably]

BTW, If I ran a major, I'd cut the player packages to zero, and make an audience package that went to paying ticket holders. Be an interesting experiment.

What's really needed is a PDGSA.

For $50 a year they will maintain your spectator rating and provide structured guidelines as to how much of your spectator entry fee must be returned to you in value.

 

[JC17393]

I guess we'll see, this conversation will move over to the Disc Golf Pro Tour... Since DGWT cut the streaming thing (at least from the last one) it's down to DGPT. And their thing is "Watch. And grow the sport" so they kind of have to stream live. And I will be going to see the local event in Minnesota which is awesome. But they are kind of committed to streaming this so I suppose we will see what kind of numbers they get. Plus they pretty much have backing from all the other companies except for Innova/Disc Mania.

Not to turn this thread into a discussion of other tours, but DGWT has chosen not to live stream their European events because they don't have the experienced streaming team to partner with like they do in the States (there could also be signal-related issues depending on where these courses are). They partnered with Emerging Sports (a.k.a. Disc Golf Planet) to broadcast the La Mirada event, and I'd bet they'll do something similar with them or Smashboxx for the USDGC in October. In the meantime, it makes sense that they put their media budget into turning around edited videos in short order rather than streaming live to a more limited (in the US) audience due to the time difference.

As for DGPT, they've committed to the Youtube streaming we've been getting for the last 4-5 years that has steadily become better with experience and advancing technology. They're taking a proven concept with experienced broadcasters and doing it all for a fraction of what it probably cost to put the American Open on ESPN. In fact, I'd wager a guess that the DGPT could fund the live coverage of all of their events this year with the money spent on the 90 minute ESPN thing and maybe have some cash left over.

I personally think the Youtube style streaming is the future for our game's live coverage (we don't need ESPN to be successful with it). But it's not going to get to traditional broadcast quality levels overnight. The combination of slowly increasing budgets and decreasing costs is going to help make it better as we move forward. It isn't always going to be one grainy, bouncy camera showing every painstaking moment of one group's round forever.

 

[DanJon]

I think Jamie raises a great point, our biggest events have as many spectators as any softball event.

Problem is that many of these events (at least the final 9) only have a gallery because the AM's are held hostage to wait for their payout.

 

[discgolfer25]

Not to turn this thread into a discussion of other tours, but DGWT has chosen not to live stream their European events because they don't have the experienced streaming team to partner with like they do in the States (there could also be signal-related issues depending on where these courses are). They partnered with Emerging Sports (a.k.a. Disc Golf Planet) to broadcast the La Mirada event, and I'd bet they'll do something similar with them or Smashboxx for the USDGC in October. In the meantime, it makes sense that they put their media budget into turning around edited videos in short order rather than streaming live to a more limited (in the US) audience due to the time difference.

As for DGPT, they've committed to the Youtube streaming we've been getting for the last 4-5 years that has steadily become better with experience and advancing technology. They're taking a proven concept with experienced broadcasters and doing it all for a fraction of what it probably cost to put the American Open on ESPN. In fact, I'd wager a guess that the DGPT could fund the live coverage of all of their events this year with the money spent on the 90 minute ESPN thing and maybe have some cash left over.

I personally think the Youtube style streaming is the future for our game's live coverage (we don't need ESPN to be successful with it). But it's not going to get to traditional broadcast quality levels overnight. The combination of slowly increasing budgets and decreasing costs is going to help make it better as we move forward. It isn't always going to be one grainy, bouncy camera showing every painstaking moment of one group's round forever.

What the DGWT did on Instagram, to me, was the best type of "live coverage" that any event has done. You got to see it in close to real time, but without the lulls in coverage. I think that platform is awesome for live coverage of disc golf events.

 

[juju]

Did they ever use any of the drone shots? If so, I must not have noticed but wasn't paying too close attention since the program was so boring.

 

[onemilemore]

I think Jamie raises a great point, our biggest events have as many spectators as any softball event. However, what is the online market? Can we deliver the eyes that a university audience does? I've always argued that we won't have the big dollars to drive the marketing needed to get air time. That has changed significantly over the past years. Take GBO. 1200 players, say 800 rooms. Times $50 to make it easy. It's more I know. But hotels alone are $120,000 for three days. If you're in two hotels say both Best Western, you have their attention. Then there's all the other amenities. Basically, we're getting closer to the kind of money that drives ESPN3.

And look at how much Emporia has embraced disc golf. The city estimated an $800,000 economic impact from the GBO...And they are hosting worlds. There aren't a lot of Emporias out there, though.

 

[WhiteyBear]

And look at how much Emporia has embraced disc golf. The city estimated an $800,000 economic impact from the GBO...And they are hosting worlds. There aren't a lot of Emporias out there, though.

You can directly related that to a successful business, business plan, good marketing, and quality event overall.

It's hard to fathom a local club doing the same every year. The difference is employees, TDs being paid, media now getting benefits, and many other intangibles. It's nice when people actually plan out vacations around this time as well. No one runs an event likd GBO every year, would be insane without all those relationships and a true business-backed event.

So, with that said. Start paying TDs, the staff, and the media, and you'll start seeing better results.

P.S. Pro Worlds is a ton of work with very little financial incentive, unlike Am Worlds.

 

[reposado]

You can directly related that to a successful business, business plan, good marketing, and quality event overall.

It's hard to fathom a local club doing the same every year. The difference is employees, TDs being paid, media now getting benefits, and many other intangibles. It's nice when people actually plan out vacations around this time as well. No one runs an event likd GBO every year, would be insane without all those relationships and a true business-backed event.

So, with that said. Start paying TDs, the staff, and the media, and you'll start seeing better results.

P.S. Pro Worlds is a ton of work with very little financial incentive, unlike Am Worlds.

it also helps to have a community of just the right size. big enough that it can handle the event but small enough that that amount of visitors makes a sizeable impact to the economy.

in orlando, 1200 players coming into town doesn't turn any heads. I'm not sure how much it does in other large cities that aren't as tourism based. (Dallas, charlotte, etc)

but like the ADGT (and most of history) has shown, building that event with organic growth and a continuously improving event is the better path.

At least as compared to telling everyone "hey guys, our new event is now the best event, come and see"

 

[lyleoross]

Problem is that many of these events (at least the final 9) only have a gallery because the AM's are held hostage to wait for their payout.

Some what. The number of Ams waiting for payout can't be the one or two hundred I've seen at some events. I admit to playing in at least one event so I could hang out at the end and watch the pro card, regardless of my own standing. Of course a statistical sample of one is just that. On the other hand, the EO had four or five hundred spectators, none playing.

The problem is that we are looking at the sport statically. Where we are at the moment. Where we were at the moment five years ago was no YouTube live streaming. Crump was doing a little bit via a log in style venue. It twas awful, but still. Now five years later and we are in a very different situation. Even with the ADGC fiasco, the EO broadcast was by any definition, a success. As I pointed out, the ads are darned good. Compare a Hyzerbomb ad (a rather small company) to late night, "it slices, it dices and it's only $9.99) ads. In a flexible world, it's hard to know where we will be in five years, but I'm not betting on non-existent.

The key point is do you have an audience? As I posted before, Europe certainly does, something Jussie probably considered when he started DGWT. Take a look at who they invited over, or talked into coming to the Czech deal. Paul, and a very well spoken Nate Sexton. Paired off against the two European power houses, and a whole bunch of top tier European players. If I didn't know better, I'd say Jussie is building a crowd pleasing top tier (I'm not saying he has built, simply that looks to be a possible goal). Given where we are, based real costs, I'd say it looks like a smart move. Is it? Don't know, but it is measured, doesn't appear to be too expensive, and seems on par with where audiences are with some push. For me, I wouldn't discount anything yet.

 

[lyleoross]

And look at how much Emporia has embraced disc golf. The city estimated an $800,000 economic impact from the GBO...And they are hosting worlds. There aren't a lot of Emporias out there, though.

I think this is a great point. Tis part of the reason why I like Texas States, a large A tier, being in Waco. They did similar things, and for Waco, that 300 person event means something. Again if I were a promotor, I'd be looking at places like Waco, Emporia, Maple Hill (non- big city venues) where you can bring enough people to make a difference.

Balancing community with audience will be tough though, but I suspect the guys who think about this most, are going to be the winners long term.

 

[lyleoross]

You can directly related that to a successful business, business plan, good marketing, and quality event overall.

It's hard to fathom a local club doing the same every year. The difference is employees, TDs being paid, media now getting benefits, and many other intangibles. It's nice when people actually plan out vacations around this time as well. No one runs an event likd GBO every year, would be insane without all those relationships and a true business-backed event.

So, with that said. Start paying TDs, the staff, and the media, and you'll start seeing better results.

P.S. Pro Worlds is a ton of work with very little financial incentive, unlike Am Worlds.

I'd bet you're going to see a community backed worlds soon. I'f I could, I'd find a small town with lots of acerage, that is dead end of summer, and plan it there. The town would have a lock on food, gas, hotels etc. At $1,000,000 most small businessmen in small towns would do everything they could. Then I'd do a community service deal with the high school. Get your staff there, or at least all your low level staff. There is a lot you could do if you had the gumption.

 

[OB Four]

Can't find the time to read through this massive thread yet. I will surely say things already said.

I've seen comments on FB and other places just saying 'at least they tried to do something big for disc golf'. They didn't do it for disc golf, they did it because they thought they could cash in off this. They had a pretty good idea there would be some outcry, but amazingly, they still decided to do this independently, which was obviously a mistake. The pro field was pathetic, I think many of us have showed up to league rounds that were more populated. The fact that they insult and berate the customers they supposedly seek to service makes it so obvious that their goals have nothing to do with the customer and they don't realize that the customer is not dependent on them, but they are dependent on the customer. I could never support this company, and I think the ride off the fact that they price things SO cheaply compared to other quality companies, that they get that market of players that either cannot afford or doesn't wish to pay the premium others companies command. The problem is that they claim to be better or on par with those other companies, but can't back it up.

Finally, seriously what good was this truly going to do for disc golf. How many ppl EVER really go to ESPN3 on the app or website? I didn't even know it existed, I couldn't even fall upon the broadcast on accident. Whereas on YouTube it's a lot easier for those not in the know to come across it.

 

[ThrowBot]

Personally, whenever I see your sig, it reminds me of "The Body Electric"...

Your reference went over my head. Am I too young? (I'm way too old to be too young for anything these days!)

I'm pretty certain the "plan" ended with the American Open. They figured they could put disc golf on "ESPN" and the players would scramble to be a part of it, the fans would come out in droves, and the entire disc golf world that couldn't attend would tune in.

With this popularity, the money will come pouring in from sponsors and Kilgus can finally quit giving happy endings

Fair enough. I'd summarize the ADGT master plan as follows:

Step 1: Big middle finger to the PDGA
Step 2: Disc golf on ESPN[3]
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit.

 

[brutalbrutus]

Your reference went over my head. Am I too young? (I'm way too old to be too young for anything these days!)



.

It's a Rush song...

 

[AndyJB]

OB Four exactly!
The (very) few remaining defenders of Salient keep crowing about how Salient tried to "grow the sport" or whatever the hell. The payouts were light, the event was hard to find if you wanted to watch it, they didnt have exclusive use of the course, the golf course wasnt even that good (I played a B-Tier the same weekend as the American Open on a golf course in Woodland Park, CO...trust me when I say it was much more scenic)...I really don't see how even if there were no Salient opposers, and their plan went off without a hitch, they would grow anything? "Grow the sport" is basically a nonsense phrase as is...just how in the hell was this supposed to work?

 

[sisyphus]

It's a Rush song...

(mostly just to get this thread count closer to 5000 ): origin: Walt Whitman, 1867 edition of Leaves of Grass, first printed in 1855...

...ps: I like Rush, too :clap:

 

[Jenga54]

I'd bet you're going to see a community backed worlds soon. I'f I could, I'd find a small town with lots of acerage, that is dead end of summer, and plan it there. The town would have a lock on food, gas, hotels etc. At $1,000,000 most small businessmen in small towns would do everything they could. Then I'd do a community service deal with the high school. Get your staff there, or at least all your low level staff. There is a lot you could do if you had the gumption.

*cough* Highbridge Hills *cough*


Too bad they burned their bridges...