Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[johnrhouck]

Thanks for your questions, Mark.

What do you think about Dual Fairways?

It depends on exactly what you mean, but I'm a huge proponent of giving players options. Especially if they're balanced enough between risk vs. reward. If different players take different routes, that's great. If an individual player takes different routes on different days, that's even better.

What do you think about a hole that has a turn that you need to layup? The layup is 250-300 out.

It's always best if:

1. The landing area is big enough that it can handle and reward good/better/best drives. But an occasional hole with a smallish landing area is fine.

2. The second shot s a full shot. A drive to a landing area that leaves you 80' from the basket is no bueno.

What do you think about a water hole that is about 350ft, reaches the pond about 230ft and about 70ft to cross the pond to the basket?

Those numbers are a little tricky for Blue level (925-975); the choice is 220' drive, 130' layup, which is on the too easy side, or a 350' drive, which is not bad but a little longer than we like. Without wind, I would expect most players to go for it.

Maybe a little better for White (875-925).

Might actually be a decent par four for Red. BUT every division would need the option to play around the water if at all possible.

What is the right tee pad size?

I like 6' front, 12' long, and 8' in back, but 6' x12' rectangle is fine. At Harmony Bends we went to 15' long. On shorter tees, 5' x 10' is usually fine.

I am working on my course and these are all ideas that I have right now. Thank you for all your help with all these responses.

I hope those answers help, and I hope your course turns out great. Let me know if you have more questions.

 

[RootsDiscGolf]

Thanks for your questions, Mark.



It depends on exactly what you mean, but I'm a huge proponent of giving players options. Especially if they're balanced enough between risk vs. reward. If different players take different routes, that's great. If an individual player takes different routes on different days, that's even better.



It's always best if:

1. The landing area is big enough that it can handle and reward good/better/best drives. But an occasional hole with a smallish landing area is fine.

2. The second shot s a full shot. A drive to a landing area that leaves you 80' from the basket is no bueno.



Those numbers are a little tricky for Blue level (925-975); the choice is 220' drive, 130' layup, which is on the too easy side, or a 350' drive, which is not bad but a little longer than we like. Without wind, I would expect most players to go for it.

Maybe a little better for White (875-925).

Might actually be a decent par four for Red. BUT every division would need the option to play around the water if at all possible.



I like 6' front, 12' long, and 8' in back, but 6' x12' rectangle is fine. At Harmony Bends we went to 15' long. On shorter tees, 5' x 10' is usually fine.



I hope those answers help, and I hope your course turns out great. Let me know if you have more questions.

On the layup hole it is another 400ft shot down hill to the basket.


The pond hole, Would it be better to move up the tee pad to make it around 300ft?


Dual fairways I was thinking of one that would be shorter, but runs along out of bounds and then a longer shot that does not mess with any out of bounds and its about 50ft or so longer than the other.

Thanks again for your help..

 

[DavidSauls]

It depends on exactly what you mean, but I'm a huge proponent of giving players options. Especially if they're balanced enough between risk vs. reward. If different players take different routes, that's great. If an individual player takes different routes on different days, that's even better.

And if the individual stands frozen on the tee, anxiously pondering which route to take, that's the best.

 

[Billipo]

To Drop zone or not

John,

I have another question for you, John, same course as my last inquiry (Pymatuning State Park DGC).

We have a par 4 with a 90 degree dogleg (Hole #14) where if you clip the corner too soon you can end up in severe briars which have gotten the best of us in trying to control (maintenance). These are very thick and draw blood. The fairway is generous but everyone who frequents the course has been there. The possibility also exists with a strong straight throw winding up OB on an access road (west state rd) which is preceded by a slope which is also thorn infested, bad footing, and isn't always easy to see exact last point IB.

My question is: Does it make sense to have a drop zone for 1.) OB road and/or 2.) Unplayable Lie (any throw in dense briars). and where to put it? or just let them play!

pix attached.

Thanks in advance. Stay safe.

Bill

 

[Cgkdisc]

Perhaps give players casual relief from all briar patches. Players stuck in the ones along the OB road would go back to the edge of each patch on the line of play and up to a meter in from OB and the patch.

 

[johnrhouck]

My question is: Does it make sense to have a drop zone for 1.) OB road and/or 2.) Unplayable Lie (any throw in dense briars). and where to put it? or just let them play!

Bill

Good to hear from you again, Bill. Bleeding on the course is rarely fun. The problem with any rules change (drop zone, unplayable, casual, etc.) is that you still have to go in and get your disc, and you still have to walk out. If you change the rule, then at least you don't have to throw from there, but you still have to endure the most painful parts of the experience.

My first thought is of my old trusty DR Field and Brush Mower, which could handle just about anything...

If that's not realistic, my first option is always to try a design solution rather than a rules solution. This looks like a tough one. Let me think on it a bit.

 

[Billipo]

John,
Thanks for input.

Brushhog sounds like the obvious answer but it would be a daunting task. Plus remove front layer of brush, more briers behind, remove all briers, then players start creating straight line routes avoiding dogleg. Trees but not thick in "woods"

The briers do not define the dogleg, they are quite early on right side. Maybe halfway to two thirds distance. You can not see in picture, but it would seem easy to stay out of brush but still we end up there. More than I would like.

Center dogleg about 175 ft red, 260 white, 325 blue.

I know hard question. That's why I reached out to you!

Thx.

 

[johnrhouck]

I can see where cutting the corner could cause problems. My first thought is how to reduce the number of people throwing in there. Two questions:

1. There are parallel white lines on either side of the blue tee -- what are those?
2. If the red tee to the corner is 175', then the approach as drawn looks to be around 150' or maybe a little less. Is that right?

 

[Rastnav]

John,
Thanks for input.

Brushhog sounds like the obvious answer but it would be a daunting task. Plus remove front layer of brush, more briers behind, remove all briers, then players start creating straight line routes avoiding dogleg. Trees but not thick in "woods"

The briers do not define the dogleg, they are quite early on right side. Maybe halfway to two thirds distance. You can not see in picture, but it would seem easy to stay out of brush but still we end up there. More than I would like.

Center dogleg about 175 ft red, 260 white, 325 blue.

I know hard question. That's why I reached out to you!

Thx.

I know I'm not any sort of expert here, but maybe I can ask a good question or two.

Is planting new bushes, etc. an option? What sort of sun do the briars get?

Just wondering if appropriate tall native shrubbery could be planted after the bush hogging (and whether they would just get choked out by the briars regrowing). I suppose that might be too expensive as well.

 

[Billipo]

Not a bad question. fairly sunny since on edge.

One problem is that brush hogging is not selective on what is cut out. Good stuff cut with bad. Area is just too much to cut with equipment and definitely too much to do selectively with loppers.

Maybe some trim back and carefully planted fast growing trees would help create a barrier.

This last visit was first time out to the park since early spring. This area has gone wild compared to the past.

thanks for input.

 

[johnrhouck]

Is planting new bushes, etc. an option? What sort of sun do the briars get?

Just wondering if appropriate tall native shrubbery could be planted...

I think a (biological) barrier might be a good answer, Rastnav, with the goal being that the "good" bushes or trees would stop shots before they got into the "bad" briar area. But there are a couple other fixes I'd like to consider first.

Bill, please see my two questions above, about trials and approach distance.

 

[Billipo]

John,
We have a group going to the course tommorrow. I'll get more accurate measurements and closer look. I was just shocked when I played last week after not being at the course for a while how aggressive the briers grew on this particular hole. Honestly the rest of the course looks great.

I'm getting old and looking for sustainable solutions! Still I want to challenge players long past my days. I can not achieve immorality through not dying but maybe leaving a few righteous courses!

 

[johnrhouck]

I can not achieve immorality through not dying but maybe leaving a few righteous courses!

That's a great thought, Bill. Have fun tomorrow, and I'll await your report.

 

[DavidSauls]

A few thoughts on the briars, from the owner of a private course that started as a briar patch, and is now practically briar-free (except for the ridiculously bad shot):

Mowing needs to be done persistently, otherwise, if it's a sunny site, the briars will return. A heavy-duty string trimmer is more selective in what it takes out. Herbicides, if the law and your conscience allow, are more effective and selective (but skip Roundup and go with something with 2,4-D; it'll do a better job on the briars, and not kill any grass that may come up). In the long run, shade is the best; if trees grow up where the briars are, they'll shade them out.

One option, if you don't want to open that area up to intentional throws, but want to lessen the pain, is to mow a series of search paths through it. This allows players to search for their discs on clear paths, which is not only less painful but much quicker, and generally the extraction of the disc is easier if it's within 6 feet of a path. But it remains an area that no one wants to go, voluntarily. (On the downside, search paths are still a constant maintenance item).

We once had an optional drop zone for a briar patch, and the key was that the drop zone shot was a little harder than the briarpatch shot, so there was no benefit in choosing it (other than not having to throw while standing in the briars).

My two cents, maybe none of which will be currency in your circumstance.

 

[Billipo]

I'm going to take everyone's ideas into consideration when I go to the course today.

One thing I am also considering. Most players who end up in bad stuff are trying to right turnover to get advantage on dogleg but errantly flip disc.

Really no advantage for a few feet, but you know players will try anything for some perceived advantage.

I've always said if a building with an open window was between a player and the basket they would try throwing through the window.

I'll share my findings later.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

One option, if you don't want to open that area up to intentional throws, but want to lessen the pain, is to mow a series of search paths through it. This allows players to search for their discs on clear paths, which is not only less painful but much quicker, and generally the extraction of the disc is easier if it's within 6 feet of a path. But it remains an area that no one wants to go, voluntarily. (On the downside, search paths are still a constant maintenance item).

That's an elegantly simple, reasonably effective, and fairly cost efficient solution. :clap:

 

[DavidSauls]

That's an elegantly simple, reasonably effective, and fairly cost efficient solution. :clap:

Thanks. It is, at least a compromise. You'd rather not have the briars at all. But a lot of what we do, is compromise.

We use the same technique with tall grass in the summer, when the growth outpaces our mowing. We'll at least cut paths every 10 feet or so through knee- or waist-high grass, so you can walk unimpeded until you spot the errant disc.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Thanks. It is, at least a compromise. You'd rather not have the briars at all. But a lot of what we do, is compromise.

We use the same technique with tall grass in the summer, when the growth outpaces our mowing. We'll at least cut paths every 10 feet or so through knee- or waist-high grass, so you can walk unimpeded until you spot the errant disc.

Bill cuts pads into the tall grass on the sides of the fairway at flip... I love that. Really makes looking for your disc so much easier because you can confine the search to a specific square.

 

[Innova63]

Thanks. It is, at least a compromise. You'd rather not have the briars at all. But a lot of what we do, is compromise.

We use the same technique with tall grass in the summer, when the growth outpaces our mowing. We'll at least cut paths every 10 feet or so through knee- or waist-high grass, so you can walk unimpeded until you spot the errant disc.

I have seen this used at Lemon Lake on the Gold course, it does help a lot.

 

[Billipo]

Played today. BTW one of four went into briers. He opted to play through the woods. Throwing overtop. Great third shot to park saving par. All four players shot par.

John- parallel lines near blue tees are primatve gravel roads.

I was off on my distances add about 25 feet to stated distance to dogleg. From dogleg center 175 ft to pin .

Briar bushes are clusters of large plants about six foot tall. It is really a solid mass pretty deep. The suggestion to cut paths might work, still I am afraid of opening up a backdoor route.

If you look in the pix the fairway narrows this is the worst area. It straddles a ditch.

Group thought if we could cut the large briar bush prior to ditch and widen the fairway about 5 ft past the ditch this could help with a lot of the problem. Will need a brush hog so park will need to assist. In the area cleared when bush proceeding ditch is cleared we could plant a fast growing tree or trees. The trees could block errant shots and eventually provide a vertical obstacle on fairway edge which will affect players choice of shots.

Since we will be brushhogging maybe we can work in access paths not oriented towards basket so throwing lanes are not created.

Thoughts?