Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[Jashwa]

re: blind holes

In the above post, assume that all holes have accurate signs.

 

[discjunky]

My friends claim to have seen John out at Live Oak in San Antonio Yesterday, I can only assume that means good news for DGers around here.

 

[harr0140]

My friends claim to have seen John out at Live Oak in San Antonio Yesterday, I can only assume that means good news for DGers around here.

Remodel or finishing the redesign?

 

[discjunky]

Remodel and redesign I think.

 

[hookem41]

Hey Mr. Houck! Will from Tyler, TX here, me and some buddies drove up to Selah Ranch yesterday and played both Creekside then Lakeside, and even though they aren't 100% complete yet, W-O-W!! I couldn't log in one more time without finding somewhere to post a very sincere THANK YOU SO MUCH! Both of these courses were a real treat to play, Dave was really nice and talked a little about how much fun he had with you getting the courses designed and installed. #7 Lakeside has to be the most fun hole that I've ever played, and as great as the pictures are, they do no justice to portray the fun factor on these courses. I can't wait to find out what kind of deal is going to be offered for season passes, because we want to be able to go back and play these courses as often as possible! Thank you for these 2 true gems of championship disc golf!

Will H, Tyler

 

[johnrhouck]

Thanks, Will. That's really great to hear.

It's really gratifying that the handful of players who have visited Selah have been enjoying it so much. We're continuing to make final improvements, and since there's been so much demand, we're actually going to open it up for a VIP Sneak Preview for two weekends in mid-August. September is grass-seeding month, so after the Sneak Peeks there will be no chances to play until just before the grand opening at the beginning of October.

We'll be running these sneak peeks August 12-14 (Friday-Sunday) and August 19-21.

You can get all then information from the Selah Ranch Disc Golf Opening page on Facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/p...252772?sk=info

You can also e-mail [email protected] to register or for more info. Or call Dee at 512-970-9001.

We have room for lots of players, so please spread the word far and wide. Hope to see everyone there.

Thanks,
John

 

[johnrhouck]

By the way, Dee and I were able to make it to the Fly Mart in Rochester, so we got to meet a lot of new people and see some old friends. One guy we finally got to meet was Tim from DGCR, so we got to tell him in person how much we appreciate the great job he's done with this site.

We also held a raffle to give away a free HouckDesign Overview sign, and the winner was... CJ Hopper from Sugarland, TX. Thanks to everyone who dropped by.

John

 

[johnrhouck]

Let me try that Facebook link again:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Disc-Golf-Opening-at-Selah-Ranch/194670887252772?sk=info

 

[T-REV]

http://youtu.be/gEz179CJZaA

 

[gottafixit]

Seeing as this is DGCR I was wonder if you could share your thoughts on the rating system, and what aspects would a course require for you to consider it a 5 rating? Also should private courses get a pass ratings wise on some of the features one would expect at a public course?

For me many things come into play, course design, flow, natural beauty, course amentities(tees, signage, navigational aids, misc) but the one thing a would be 5 must have for me is multiple permanent player levels(multiple tees designed for different level players or multiple permanent baskets designed for different level players). Thoughts?

 

[DGRZ001]

You forgot to add "course designer" as one of your aspects

 

[johnrhouck]

Do you recommend planting trees directly in front of the basket? . . say 10 to 20' in front. We have a new course in SW Missouri with a lot of mature trees that they've decided was not tough enough, so they planted dozens of smaller trees directly blocking the baskets. They may have accomplished their goal of making the course a few shots tougher . . but I have talked to several players who feel that the course has been sort of "cosmetically cheapened". The course has lost some of it's natural character. (Kind of like a golf course designer putting a bunch of pot hole bunkers in front of the greens just to get a higher course rating) What are your thoughts about this issue? Is a beautifully tree lined 200 foot hole considered bad just because it allows a direct flight for an ace?

Great questions, Kent. Your first one about trees in front of the basket raises a bigger issue about obstacles anywhere on the hole: in the middle of the fairway, by the tee, or near the basket. The most important rule I use, and it's one of the most important design rules we have, is that single trees generally increase the luck factor on a hole. What we want to do is increase the ratio of skill to luck, and single trees usually work against us. The classic example is a skinny tree in the middle of a wooded fairway. Let's say three of us are trying righty hyzers. The first guy squeaks by the tree and winds up 20' from the pin. Your drive, only two inches left of his, hits the tree and kicks into the shule. Even worse, my drive goes 3 feet left of yours, misses the skinny tree, and winds up 25' from the pin. So the worst drive got essentially the same reward as the best drive. And two virtually identical shots got very different rewards. Basically, you got screwed by weak design.

There will always be times when two similar drives get different results, but our goal is to minimize that. The solution in this case would be to plant several trees and create an obstacle that's several feet wide, not four inches wide. People can make the case that perfectly-placed skinny trees force players to choose to one type of throw or another, and that is a good thing. But in general we want to create fairways that don't rely on thin obstacles. I think the absence of lone trees is one of the things players are really enjoying at Selah Ranch. The owners gave me almost unprecedented control of fairway widths and obstacle locations, so the only time you'll see a single skinny tree (over even a single medium tree) is when it's working with another tree nearby to create well-defined alleys. That's one of the design successes I'm most proud of at Selah.

To answer your specific question about trees in front of the basket, I'd say that as long as there are enough trees to create a wide obstacle, there's nothing wrong with the concept. Now, if the only routes to the basket take you smack into those trees, and you have to pray you miss them, then they're increasing the luck level once again. In general, making areas of the green that are more desirable and other areas that are less desirable is a good thing -- right now that's one of the areas where ball golf courses are really superior to disc golf courses. As always, you have to do it right, or you risk making your hole worse, not better.

As to your point about changing the natural feel of the course, I'm with you. You want any plantings you do to keep with the natural feel, even enhance it. I'm not a big fan of obstacles that look or feel artificial.

Finally, the answer to your last question is easy: I believe disc golf needs shots where a straight flight is the only option. Players should have to show that they can throw a dead-straight shot at least 2-3 times during a round. Of course, the widths and lengths have to balance for it to be a fair shot.... as always.

Thanks, and Happy New Year to you and everyone out there.

John

 

[Dave242]

Great to see you back on here John. I love your articles and your posts!

I do have a question about your philosophy of not having single/skinny obstacles in the fairway:

What we want to do is increase the ratio of skill to luck, and single trees usually work against us. The classic example is a skinny tree in the middle of a wooded fairway.
......
There will always be times when two similar drives get different results, but our goal is to minimize that. The solution in this case would be to plant several trees and create an obstacle that's several feet wide, not four inches wide. People can make the case that perfectly-placed skinny trees force players to choose to one type of throw or another, and that is a good thing. But in general we want to create fairways that don't rely on thin obstacles.

It seems you are focusing on the obstacle and not the airspace. If a fairway is so wide that it presents no real challenge, then leaving a splitter tree in the middle of the fairway half way down makes two separate and more challenging fairways. Now there are choices being made (forced on you by the hole design) and more likely punishment for not executing as intended - I would think that is a good thing on 2 fronts.

Does it not make more sense to focus more on the fairways/airways (the intended path of the disc's flight) and make sure that is fair than worrying as much about missing the intended airway?

An illustrative example is this flyby video (not the perfect example by one I have in hand that will do).



My perspective of fair airways would be to leave the first splitter tree (larger dark bark with Y trunk) and then probably remove the 2nd and/or 3rd trees (thinner light colored).

How would you explain the point you are making above if there was only the first tree in place? (I realize you will not have a perfect perspective not seeing the fairway in person, so speculation is fine.)

 

[grodney]

I've never seen that hole in person, but from the video, it's borderline dumb. Especially if it's an example of "If a fairway is so wide that it presents no real challenge...".

(I know you said it's not a perfect example of what you were asking.)

 

[Dave242]

I have started a new thread here so as not to hijack John's thread. I think this is a really good and interesting topic.

 

[grodney]

Dearest Lord Houck,

What's the haps?

Hope all is well.

What's the status of that Live Oak re-design (and any associated work to make it a reality)?

Thanks!

 

[johnrhouck]

G, it's good to hear from you.

The Live Oak project took three steps forward this week. We had a good meeting with the president of Northeast Lakeview College and several members of the College staff. The City and the College still need to develop and approve a legal agreement that puts everyone on the same page, so I'm hoping that will be done soon.

The City did begin a little bit of clearing on the new North course, so that was an important step, too.

Also, a major sponsor came on board this week. Not sure if I can talk about that just yet.

I'm very excited about the whole project and having three World Class courses in one location. The City, the College, and the LODGA are all working together, and I think Live Oak is going to become a real destination in the disc golf world.

I know you guys will be here in about a month. I don't think there will be any new holes for you to enjoy that soon.

 

[Bultx1215]

That would be very cool if it will happen. I won't hold my breath on the college, though. Northwest Vista took close to 4 years to get going I'm told. That college district moves like frozen molasses.:doh:

 

[jsc430]

Speaking of things in front of the basket...

Was there every any intent to have the hay stacks in front of the basket on #12 Creekside at Selah? I lost a ce valk in there so of of course i argued that it wasn't but i thought it was a unique obstacle too.

Bravo on the design of each course at Selah. Both are unique and great in there own way and an incredible destination together. Selah takes the disc golf experience to another level. I have a feeling that soon it will be the top rated course on this site. Your thoughts on Selah as the #1 course vs. some of the other greats?

Thanks for all you've done for disc golf here in Texas, Circle R is one of our favorite places to visit in the summertime.

 

[johnrhouck]

That would be very cool if it will happen. I won't hold my breath on the college, though. Northwest Vista took close to 4 years to get going I'm told. That college district moves like frozen molasses.:doh:

I know Northwest took a long time, but this situation is pretty different. For starters, there have been holes on Northeast Lakeview property for several years, and the whole project is very much a cooperative venture with the City of Live Oak. So I'm hoping it'll be a quicker process. In any case, it looks like it will be worth the wait. If it all goes as planned, this will be real championship disc golf.