Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[johnrhouck]

I posted this earlier on the forums and was told that here might be a good place to post as well


I am currently in the process of getting a disc golf course in the southern san diego area. I have scoped out an area that i believe would be nice (what do i know). But i have emailed the city and they told me that the area was dedicated open space and i would have to work around the regulations of the MHPA. I looked up the MHPA and they state that in dedicated open space there may be low impact activities such as hiking, biking, equestrian (really? horses are low impact?) , etc. Have any of you guys built courses on low impact lands? How can I work around this? Any ideas on my disc golf course progression or next steps is appriciated! Thanks.

Smook, I think the PDGA has crossed this bridge already. Let me see what I can find out from HQ, or maybe Chuck can tell us. I'll get back to you. Thanks for the question.

 

[johnrhouck]

Hey John, I heard awhile back that you were going to design a course in Kemah. Is this happening? I'm very interested as it would be my new home course. Thanks!

To the best of my understanding, Kemah has been trying to figure out what to do with this land for many years. It looked like they had finally made a plan they could commit to, but I guess in the end the commission and/or community couldn't agree. So the entire park -- including, obviously, the disc golf aspect -- is in limbo for now. We're hoping it will still happen one day, but for now you'll have to keep the home course you have. Sorry.

 

[smook]

I appriciate it.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I would check with Snapper Pierson, proprietor of the Morley Field course in San Diego. He's probably tried everything possible over the years to get other courses installed in the area. I think the original course at Oak grove in Pasadena may be on open space so I would also check that out.

 

[mfcastillo17]

To John or Chuck,
I am excited to say that I have received approval from my boss to begin design on a new course. This course will be located in Los Lunas, New Mexico which is about 20 miles south of Albuquerque along the Rio Grande River. This will be a unique location for us as it will be located in open space land in the "Bosque" which is a large cottonwood forest that runs along the river. All other attempts at putting courses in the Bosque have not been approved in other cities along the Rio Grande as it is a protected forest and due to concerns about fire danger. I have designed a couple of courses on ball golf courses, which is a far easier design job then the one I am working on now. I have questions and any help and advice will be much appreciated.

1. When beginning the design, do you already have a goal in mind in terms of total course distance and par? The piece of land is huge and other than the large cottonwoods and some elm trees, it is relatively clear with an extensive trail system built in. This make the hole possibilities almost endless. My goal is to have it par 60 ish with multiple tee pads.

Sorry for the rambling question. Thank you for your help and I'm sure I will have more questions as I progress further with this project!

 

[johnrhouck]

1. When beginning the design, do you already have a goal in mind in terms of total course distance and par? The piece of land is huge and other than the large cottonwoods and some elm trees, it is relatively clear with an extensive trail system built in. This make the hole possibilities almost endless. My goal is to have it par 60 ish with multiple tee pads.

Over the last 3-4 years, I've been doing mostly championship courses, so I usually hope to have 7-9 par 3's, 7-9 par 4's, and 2-3 par 5's. How it winds up is often a matter of how many par 5's there are, because being able to make that many high-quality par 5's is generally the trickiest part.

Two important notes. First, that's the kind of job I've been getting. If the client wanted something else, then obviously I'd be starting from a different place. Second, it's ultimately the land that will dictate the type of holes. If an area of the property gives you two really nice par threes, I wouldn't be inclined to combine them just because I was hoping to have an extra par four in the big picture.

Hops that helps, and good luck with your project.

 

[mfcastillo17]

Thanks John. We did the preliminary layout and it is looking like around par 60. Toured the area with the guy who does the GIS mapping for the city plotting the points to get exact distances on the holes. I am beyond excited to get this going! Some of the landscape reminds me of Rolling Meadows (RIP).

 

[johnrhouck]

Some of the landscape reminds me of Rolling Meadows (RIP).

If that's the case, you're starting from a good place. That's also the first thing I thought of when you said "cottonwood." Hope to see it some day.

 

[mfcastillo17]

 

[afterdarkZ]

Course Redesign

What is your experience with redesigning existing courses? Is it better to start from scratch? Do you keep only the best existing holes with possibly some minor tweaks? Or do you work with the original layout as much as possible?

I know this will vary greatly depending on the original design and it's hard to make generalizations. I'm just looking for any advice from John or anyone else who has been down this road before.

 

[tom12003]

What is your experience with redesigning existing courses? Is it better to start from scratch? Do you keep only the best existing holes with possibly some minor tweaks? Or do you work with the original layout as much as possible?

I know this will vary greatly depending on the original design and it's hard to make generalizations. I'm just looking for any advice from John or anyone else who has been down this road before.

Really depends on how old the existing course is; if more than 10+ years ago, little tweaks generally will be little tweaks to add strokes but not scoring separation--unless there is a lot more potential land to consider. In the past 2 years, I've helped build 2 new tight, wooded courses (DGCR rated at 4.18 and 3.60) where the designers built significant tweaks into their initial layouts. These courses (RL Smith and Plantation Ruins) both went with the easier design to open the courses for the 2012 Worlds); both now have active debate about how to add scoring separation options by tweaks (or not at all). Being relativity new courses, Stan insisted to the designers that significant tweaks should be considered to truly elevate their challenge. Tweaks should be made to widen scoring separation, not just adding distance or difficulty.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Amen to that, my place is a short course but it's a great equalizer, placement is crucial especially as shrubbery gets beat down. Have you ever heard of a motorized putting obstacle like mini golf? I was thinking about doing one at my place this year.

 

[silverbullet]

Not really a question but i recently played cedar glades in hot springs, AR . Great job on designing the course! it was an amazing round of golf just a ton of leaves

 

[johnrhouck]

What is your experience with redesigning existing courses? Is it better to start from scratch? Do you keep only the best existing holes with possibly some minor tweaks? Or do you work with the original layout as much as possible?

I know this will vary greatly depending on the original design and it's hard to make generalizations. I'm just looking for any advice from John or anyone else who has been down this road before.

Well, I think you've really answered your own question already: it depends.

If a completely new design from scratch is really an option, then you've got all kinds of new possibilities (unless the property is small and/or narrow or otherwise limited).

What's interesting about that kind of "redesign" is that it's even more complex than making a brand new course is, because you've got additional decisions to make. For example, if you have concrete tees, you now need to ask if it's worth the cost/effort to move or repour the tee. And you now have to deal with a whole new set of expectations -- what will the players think about you modifying or eliminating their favorite holes? Players can get very attached to their favorite courses and holes.

Tom makes a really good point: changing a hole just to make it "harder" or "longer" is a temptation you really need to watch out for. I've seen good holes ruined by redesigners trying to achieve one of those two results.

For what it's worth, the redesgn we're doing at Live Oak is essentially a whole new beginning. There are areas of the park that we're now going to clear, and the parks department's commitment to having world class courses is a big factor. Also the state of the art of course design has come along way in ten years, and what was innovative and exceptional back then may be different from what's exceptional today. I'm really excited about the new courses, and I think they will be several steps above and beyond the original courses.

For what it's worth, the question I keep asking myself is this: "Is there any way that someone is going to think the old hole is preferable to the new hole?" If I'm confident that the new version is clearly better and that I've done the best I can with what I have to work with, then it's a go.

Good luck with your project. Hope it turns out great.

 

[Bultx1215]

John, will the Live Oak redesign have multiple tees for some of the long holes? I'd hate to see it be just a 8-9000 footer with no shorter options for us old types or newbs.

 

[johnrhouck]

John, will the Live Oak redesign have multiple tees for some of the long holes? I'd hate to see it be just a 8-9000 footer with no shorter options for us old types or newbs.

Live Oak will absolutely have two tees per hole. Have no fear.

 

[Bultx1215]

Excellent. :clap: Thanks.

 

[johnrhouck]

Not really a question but i recently played cedar glades in hot springs, AR . Great job on designing the course! it was an amazing round of golf just a ton of leaves

Thanks, SB. I know they've had some teepad issues and a couple other things to deal with. I haven't been there in a long time -- hoping to make it back someday (and maybe make some tweaks).

In any case, I'm really glad you enjoyed it.

 

[DavidSauls]

In your most recent article in Disc Golfer, you mentioned places where a throw off the fairway leaves no room for a recovery shot, but forces the player to pitch out to the fairway. I've seen criticisms of the pitch out in other forums as well.

Admittedly, the pitch-out throw isn't usually much of a golf throw. Unless you throw as badly as I do and sometimes just reaching the fairway is a challenge. But it seems to me that these areas play much like O.B.---a serious hazard that you seriously want to avoid because of the extra stroke it will cost you. Other than the fact that it's harder to fly over, how much different is a fairway lined with dense rough that will require a pitchout from a fairway lined with O.B.?

 

[Ranger Rick]

What is your experience with redesigning existing courses? Is it better to start from scratch? Do you keep only the best existing holes with possibly some minor tweaks? Or do you work with the original layout as much as possible?

I know this will vary greatly depending on the original design and it's hard to make generalizations. I'm just looking for any advice from John or anyone else who has been down this road before.

Z,

As others have stated, it depends.

I am in the middle of redesigning the 9-hole, pole course in my neighborhood. It is part of a multi-use, city park, and if we were to start from scratch, there would be land-use permits involved. As it stands, because we are just replacing the poles with baskets, and adding tee pads (even though we will be moving some to make it more player-friendly), it's considered an upgrade, so no land-use permits, or environmental impact statements are necessary.