Big Money Skins

[Three Putt]

I think the end game for the owner is to have Eagle's Crossing recognized as the world's best disc golf venue and rather than hosting a silver series event, like Lake Marshall and New World he is basically going over DGPT's head to get there. Shades of LIV ?

Yeah, the Eagles Crossing guy has a bunch of money and doesn't mind throwing it around. He owns this sewing supply place in St. Louis, which I only know because we heard of a "Philip Samuels fine art display" in U City a long time ago which turned out to be the parking lot for this sewing supply place. There are a bunch of sculptures in the parking lot. The weird stuff on the course site make a bunch more sense after you see his company's parking lot, anyway.

I don't know if he would go so far as to try to run a breakaway tour or anything, but DGPT is probably going to have to do something with the guy or we are going to find out.

FUN FACT: Samuels main connection to established disc golf is Dave McCormack, and McCormack back in the late 90's tried to start a breakaway tour from the PDGA. It didn't go anywhere, but for decades the Gateway website url was "gdstour" because when he launched the website it originally was a place to list his breakaway tour events. So the idea of a breakaway tour might have been brought up to the guy by now.

 

[Mando]

Yeah, the Eagles Crossing guy has a bunch of money and doesn't mind throwing it around. He owns this sewing supply place in St. Louis, which I only know because we heard of a "Philip Samuels fine art display" in U City a long time ago which turned out to be the parking lot for this sewing supply place. There are a bunch of sculptures in the parking lot. The weird stuff on the course site make a bunch more sense after you see his companies parking lot, anyway.

I don't know if he would go so far as to try to run a breakaway tour or anything, but DGPT is probably going to have to do something with the guy or we are going to find out.

FUN FACT: Samuels main connection to established disc golf is Dave McCormack, and McCormack back in the late 90's tried to start a breakaway tour from the PDGA. It didn't go anywhere, but for decades the Gateway website url was "gdstour" because when he launched the website it originally was a place to list his breakaway tour events. So the idea of a breakaway tour might have been brought up to the guy by now.

Ah, I wasn't aware, the plot thickens... a breakaway tour with Nikko as CEO ?

 

[dmoore1998]

The timing of this kills the start of DGPT's new wraparound 2023 season (silver) opener at Lake Marshall, by pulling potential competitors out of the east coast into the midwest instead of playing in the down east A tier. I'm sticking with a drone strike.

From some of the touring pros I know, it seems pretty doubtful that many of them would have gone to Lake Marshall (or will go). Most of them seem to just want to get home for a while now that the actual season is over. Many of them are probably going to this event purely because it is a limited field with big money available...if they weren't heading there they'd be heading home.

Feels like the wraparound events are more so people just keep paying for DGN than anything during the offseason.

The timing of this actually seems pretty amazing for the DGPT. It happened once their entire season was wrapped. It might have had a very different flavor to it if it happened on a bye week prior to a major, or during one of the lower-level elite series events, etc.

Given that it doesn't even actually compete with the silver series event...what better timing for the DGPT could they have possibly used and still had decent weather? I think if you'd given the DGPT a calendar and said "pick a date" this is likely the one they would have picked.

 

[Mando]

From some of the touring pros I know, it seems pretty doubtful that many of them would have gone to Lake Marshall (or will go). Most of them seem to just want to get home for a while now that the actual season is over. Many of them are probably going to this event purely because it is a limited field with big money available...if they weren't heading there they'd be heading home.

Feels like the wraparound events are more so people just keep paying for DGN than anything during the offseason.

The timing of this actually seems pretty amazing for the DGPT. It happened once their entire season was wrapped. It might have had a very different flavor to it if it happened on a bye week prior to a major, or during one of the lower-level elite series events, etc.

Given that it doesn't even actually compete with the silver series event...what better timing for the DGPT could they have possibly used and still had decent weather? I think if you'd given the DGPT a calendar and said "pick a date" this is likely the one they would have picked.

The Down East same weekend of the skins is an established A tier with a good payout that has attracted touring pros in the past. It's less than a 4 hour drive to Lake Marshall. I think the combo would have been attractive. I doubt many folks would drive 15 hours from Eagles crossing to Lake Marshall for a silver. They tend to line up with elite and major events as a draw.

 

[ChrisWoj]

The timing of this kills the start of DGPT's new wraparound 2023 season (silver) opener at Lake Marshall, by pulling potential competitors out of the east coast into the midwest instead of playing in the down east A tier. I'm sticking with a drone strike.

The Disc Golf Pro Tour runs events on 27 of the 52 weekends out of the year. This event is happening on a weekend that is not in direct conflict with any of those 27 weeks of the season. No matter which off-week of the disc golf season that they decided to hold this event, aside from the very narrow period where the DGPT is in the region, you could have said what you did about the event. The fact is that they're choosing to hold this event during what is essentially the off-season, following the most intense month-and-a-half stretch of the season, during a time when most players are going to opt to go home rather than play in a few A Tier "wrap-around" events. And lets note that some of the players - most notably Dickerson and Aderhold - apparently see no issues hitting both events. Frankly, I wouldn't expect many of these guys to bother hitting LMO even if they weren't playing Eagle's Crossing.

You're dramatically overstating something that, if it is a harbinger of a new tour, certainly doesn't do anything quite yet to tweak the nose of the DGPT.

 

[Three Putt]

Ah, I wasn't aware, the plot thickens... a breakaway tour with Nikko as CEO ?

Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think even Nikko sees himself as "Boss" material.

I don't think a breakaway series will happen. I don't think it's the end game. I think that being a DGPT stop with an unusually high payout is the end game, though.

 

[Mando]

Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think even Nikko sees himself as "Boss" material.

I don't think a breakaway series will happen. I don't think it's the end game. I think that being a DGPT stop with an unusually high payout is the end game, though.

Yea, I know. I do like the irony though. I can't see Samuels willing to work his way up the DGPT ladder, starting with a silver event and EC is not on the 2023 DGPT schedule.

 

[dmoore1998]

The Down East same weekend of the skins is an established A tier with a good payout that has attracted touring pros in the past. It's less than a 4 hour drive to Lake Marshall. I think the combo would have been attractive. I doubt many folks would drive 15 hours from Eagles crossing to Lake Marshall for a silver. They tend to line up with elite and major events as a draw.

Just looking at last year, they got 13 players with a rating over 1000. I see zero of those 13 players on the confirmed list for skins. Only 4 of those 13 live outside North Carolina, 1 of which is from West Virginia. As I go down the list of top players at the tournament, it's North Carolina for the vast majority of them...and not players confirmed to be playing Big Money Skins.

So it seems like a LOT of the players playing Down East fall directly into the category of "guys coming home and playing a local A tier" as opposed to "touring pro making a special stop there".

If I look this year, I see 16 folks rated 1000 or higher registered. Only 8 from NC...so it doesn't look to have been very impactful.

 

[dmoore1998]

Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think even Nikko sees himself as "Boss" material.

I don't think a breakaway series will happen. I don't think it's the end game. I think that being a DGPT stop with an unusually high payout is the end game, though.

Do you think they WANT to be a DGPT stop? I don't want to speculate on motivation of individuals...but it seems like they have a higher profile now hosting skins matches than they would as simply being a stop on the tour. This seems like a nice sweet-spot between "wanting to be their own tour" and "not wanting to do the work of being their own tour". They're mentioned a lot throughout the year, plenty of advertising for their pay-to-play course, etc. Hosting big money events 2-3 times a year keeps them relevant all year long without the need to even entangle themselves with the DGPT or PDGA.

 

[Three Putt]

Do you think they WANT to be a DGPT stop? I don't want to speculate on motivation of individuals...but it seems like they have a higher profile now hosting skins matches than they would as simply being a stop on the tour. This seems like a nice sweet-spot between "wanting to be their own tour" and "not wanting to do the work of being their own tour". They're mentioned a lot throughout the year, plenty of advertising for their pay-to-play course, etc. Hosting big money events 2-3 times a year keeps them relevant all year long without the need to even entangle themselves with the DGPT or PDGA.

Originally he talked a lot about hosting Worlds and being a DGPT host. My impression (with no facts to back it up with) was that as an outsider to disc golf, he had no idea what the requirements to host were or the process to become one was. Now that he presumably has contacted enough people to know the requirement and process, does he still want those things? No idea.

 

[dmoore1998]

Originally he talked a lot about hosting Worlds and being a DGPT host. My impression (with no facts to back it up with) was that as an outsider to disc golf, he had no idea what the requirements to host were or the process to become one was. Now that he presumably has contacted enough people to know the requirement and process, does he still want those things? No idea.

I'm assuming he'd still like to host Worlds. I know originally he spoke about being a DGPT stop...I was more just wondering to myself if now that he's seen how largely irrelevant DGPT stops are the majority of the year, if they wouldn't prefer being a more significant presence in disc golf.

 

[Three Putt]

I'm assuming he'd still like to host Worlds. I know originally he spoke about being a DGPT stop...I was more just wondering to myself if now that he's seen how largely irrelevant DGPT stops are the majority of the year, if they wouldn't prefer being a more significant presence in disc golf.

Disc golf is kinda weird in that so many large events happen on not-disc-golf-courses. Idlewild and Maple Hill are actually exceptions in that they are very highly regarded, permanent courses that host major events. Most of the other very highly regarded courses are not used for a variety of reasons.

So yeah, to be considered the best disc golf course it is not a all a requirement that it hosts a big event. Those things seem to have no correlation at all.

 

[The Shide]

According to the list of confirmed players, Eagle will be playing. Slightly surprised considering it was stated he was shutting it down for the remainder of the year. But, hey, money talks.

Also listed was Nikko. Will be interesting to see how far he has come in keeping his putting routine under 30 seconds.

 

[nothinbuttree]

Originally he talked a lot about hosting Worlds and being a DGPT host. My impression (with no facts to back it up with) was that as an outsider to disc golf, he had no idea what the requirements to host were or the process to become one was. Now that he presumably has contacted enough people to know the requirement and process, does he still want those things? No idea.

I still think this is the end game. With the course barely in the ground, they submitted a formal bid for 2023 Worlds. This from the on-site manager when we played there last October. Not sure if a bid was/will be submitted for 2024 Worlds. Honestly don't even know when the deadline is/was for that.

The strategy would appear to be build it, market it, bankroll huge paydays to the top players so they have good things to say...and Worlds will come. Sort of a grass roots approach perhaps?

It is interesting to see a new person with the $$ to make some noise enter the scene. One wonders how the big 3 or 4 (5 or 6?) power players are handling this--is it a threat, or an opportunity for them?

 

[Three Putt]

I still think this is the end game. With the course barely in the ground, they submitted a formal bid for 2023 Worlds. This from the on-site manager when we played there last October. Not sure if a bid was/will be submitted for 2024 Worlds. Honestly don't even know when the deadline is/was for that.

The strategy would appear to be build it, market it, bankroll huge paydays to the top players so they have good things to say...and Worlds will come. Sort of a grass roots approach perhaps?

It is interesting to see a new person with the $$ to make some noise enter the scene. One wonders how the big 3 or 4 (5 or 6?) power players are handling this--is it a threat, or an opportunity for them?

Isn't the cell service still the major hurdle there?

 

[HyooMac]

I've enjoyed watching most of the Skins matches, mostly because of the relatively casual vibe and the possibility of smack talk. I think Luke Humphries has done a really good job of gradually building something with its own personality, features, branding - even some clever merch.

But it's been free on YT - and I wouldn't consider paying for it any more than I would consider paying for those endless Jomez practice rounds.


And FWIW, I've always been a little suspicious about how much the pros tend to fall over themselves to praise Eagle's Crossing. I'm sure its an excellent venue, but it feels like maybe the Hype Train has jumped the rails.

 

[nothinbuttree]

Isn't the cell service still the major hurdle there?

It was a year ago. They had wifi available for navigation purposes on part of the property.

One imagines live-streaming an event there would be difficult. Is the coverage for this year's skins going to be live? If so, that may partially answer any questions on that front.

 

[TheOtherBill]

It's live

 

[nothinbuttree]

And FWIW, I've always been a little suspicious about how much the pros tend to fall over themselves to praise Eagle's Crossing. I'm sure its an excellent venue, but it feels like maybe the Hype Train has jumped the rails.

Well...they are getting paid to be there, so part of it just paid advertisement (which I have no problem with).

That said, the reviews of the course on this forum have been pretty strong. Not top 10 strong, but not bad at all...

The course itself I think is worthy of a pro stop. But another issue with having Worlds there (as has been pointed out) is no close 2nd course. Harmony is 75 minutes away, though only 60 minutes from Warrenton, where a lot of folks would likely stay. Not sure if that is close enough or not.

 

[Mando]

Well...they are getting paid to be there, so part of it just paid advertisement (which I have no problem with).

That said, the reviews of the course on this forum have been pretty strong. Not top 10 strong, but not bad at all...

The course itself I think is worthy of a pro stop. But another issue with having Worlds there (as has been pointed out) is no close 2nd course. Harmony is 75 minutes away, though only 60 minutes from Warrenton, where a lot of folks would likely stay. Not sure if that is close enough or not.

Actually, the reviews are very strong, like top 3 strong and aren't they installing a second course on site ?