Big Questions after "Fundamentals of"

[EllEstar]

I consider myself "Mr. APT" since I'm prominently featured at the top left of page 47 (though I am better now!). I have a lot of thoughts on the issue.

1) I think the inclusion of Anthony Barela kind of weakens the argument. We are talking about arguably the furthest thrower on the planet, and he throws with spine extension/APT. Here is touring pro and **1021** rated golfer Austin turner throwing (shirtless) with clear spine extension/APT;


2) Perhaps the biggest point. I have brought this up before. Spine extension/APT is a chicken/egg problem:

A) is APT caused by a lack of core strength/mobility/physical limitation or

B) is APT caused by a flawed "internal model" of the throw?

If you ask me **today** I would say it's 80%B and 20%B. Indeed the better shape you are in the less this exists, but both AB and Austin Turner are in great shape and elite disc golfers (and by some coincidence both from Arizona) but exhibit APT and spine extension. I would put good money that even if you were an Olympic gymnast, you could still throw in spine extension/APT given your "internal model"/training/body mechanics or preferences

To me there does point to some sort of swing model that allows for high level distance *despite* spine extension/APT though it may not apply to everyone. I think there are bodies that make it work

Or maybe not by coincidence. Drew Gibson also has some APT going on, albeit not as much, and while he's not from Arizona he does live there and started playing there very early on in his career.

Uli has talked about how the best player in his area did a crow hop in his run-up so he started doing it too. Maybe there are/were some influential players in AZ that preach or play with APT.

 

[EllEstar]

I've also seen people do this. I tried it once and never did it again. Basically if you're not ejecting the disc the force can only find its way back into the ground and your body (joints go owie!)

I'm still really fond of this one. You can get a good medium speed swing and feel the weight/resistance if you follow through. Sometimes I do it with two putters stacked flight plate to flight plate for more weight & air resistance in the deep dish. I think this was an important part of developing my arm kinetics and it definitely affects my warmup & first drives.

The Finish & Address Position & Pre-Shot Routine

Shawn Clement had an older Finish Position video similar to the one below. He said that the Finish Position is the Tuning Fork of Your Form. I thought that was a really profound statement and it really helped me fine tune my form. The finish position is like watching the ripples from a stone...

www.dgcoursereview.com

Not saying you should or should not, but I've probably thrown thousands of throws with up to 100% power with no disc, it's been a huge part of developing my technique and one of my best sources of practice during the long Nordic winter.

I have even included it in my preshot routine sometimes.

If I'm being honest I know that when I do it a lot I tend to feel like crap and get injured more easily, so I try to not overdo it. But I also doubt I'd throw 350' if I had never done it, much less low to mid 400s.

 

[Brychanus]

Not saying you should or should not, but I've probably thrown thousands of throws with up to 100% power with no disc, it's been a huge part of developing my technique and one of my best sources of practice during the long Nordic winter.

I have even included it in my preshot routine sometimes.

If I'm being honest I know that when I do it a lot I tend to feel like crap and get injured more easily, so I try to not overdo it. But I also doubt I'd throw 350' if I had never done it, much less low to mid 400s.

Perhaps "everything in moderation" if you allow complete follow through?

 

[sidewinder22]

On the topic of safety I see a lot of people dry firing practice swings like they're trying to push 500. Probably not good for the body.

I've also seen people do this. I tried it once and never did it again. Basically if you're not ejecting the disc the force can only find its way back into the ground and your body (joints go owie!)

I'm still really fond of this one. You can get a good medium speed swing and feel the weight/resistance if you follow through. Sometimes I do it with two putters stacked flight plate to flight plate for more weight & air resistance in the deep dish. I think this was an important part of developing my arm kinetics and it definitely affects my warmup & first drives.

The Finish & Address Position & Pre-Shot Routine

Shawn Clement had an older Finish Position video similar to the one below. He said that the Finish Position is the Tuning Fork of Your Form. I thought that was a really profound statement and it really helped me fine tune my form. The finish position is like watching the ripples from a stone...

www.dgcoursereview.com

Not saying you should or should not, but I've probably thrown thousands of throws with up to 100% power with no disc, it's been a huge part of developing my technique and one of my best sources of practice during the long Nordic winter.

I have even included it in my preshot routine sometimes.

If I'm being honest I know that when I do it a lot I tend to feel like crap and get injured more easily, so I try to not overdo it. But I also doubt I'd throw 350' if I had never done it, much less low to mid 400s.

Perhaps "everything in moderation" if you allow complete follow through?

Pitching studies have shown that lighter weight training improves velocity with less injury. Thinking back to when I did my Indoor Viscous practice a few years ago, right after that I was probably throwing my furthest. I see benefits to throwing different weights, lighter and heavier. Heavier effortless tosses probably better for beginners learning the correct kinetic sequence, and then later on lighter weights to increase velocity. Everything should be done in moderation of course.

Training With Lighter Baseballs Increases Velocity Without Increasing the Injury Risk

Pitch velocity has become an increasingly popular metric by which pitchers are graded and compared. Training programs that utilize weighted balls have been effective in increasing velocity but at the cost of an increased injury risk. No studies have evaluated ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Conclusion:

A 15-week pitching training program with lighter baseballs significantly improved pitching velocity without causing any injuries, specifically to the shoulder or elbow. Lighter baseballs should be considered as an alternative to weighted baseballs when attempting to increase a pitcher's velocity."

The Real Reason Why Weighted Baseballs Increase Pitching Velocity, and Injury Rates

Weighted baseball programs have become popular to increase pitching velocity. But, the popularity has grown faster than our understanding of the science.

mikereinold.com

"So What Does All This Mean?

Quite simply, we know that the more external rotation you have the more velocity you have. We also know this increases the stress on your shoulder and elbow.

This is the part that sounds like rocket science but is actually common sense. It's physics. More layback allows the arm to throw harder, which puts more stress on the arm.

Weighted balls increase layback, which increases velocity, which both increase stress, which all increase injury rates.

Do We Even Need Weighted Ball Training Programs?

OK, I get it, you still want to use weighted balls. They seem magical on the internet.
I'm completely fine with that. I use them myself with many of the players we work with, but not all of them.
As we continue to learn more, I think we realize that weighted balls have a very small place in our velocity development programs for the right person at the right time.

They should not be performed blindly on a big group of people like we are seeing being implemented for youth, high school, and college teams across the country.

This is silly.

As with everything else in life, it's all about the dosage. Ever hear the phrase "there's too much of a good thing?"
We are really overdosing on weighted balls."

24 Myths that are Making your Pitchers WORSE: Part 2, Pen to Paper with Andrew Parks

See part one of this series here.

www.parksperformance.net

"Weighted Baseballs are More Stressful on the Arm
For starters, if you're in the anti-weighted baseball group make sure your son does not pick up anything that does not weigh exactly five ounces. Throwing things like tennis balls, softballs, dodgeballs, rocks, whiffle balls, snowballs, and footballs could seriously put them at risk for getting hurt.

(Hint: Throwing balls that do not weigh exactly five ounces is perfectly okay.)

Now that we got that out of the way, let's talk about what classifies as a "weighted baseball." For one, saying "weighted baseballs" are bad is meaningless because any ball that has some sort of weight is a weighted baseball. How did we figure out that the five ounce one was the safest? Why does adding (overload) or subtracting (underload) an ounce from the ball all of a sudden make it dangerous? For all we know, the five ounce one seems to do the most harm…

Stress is NOT bad. We need stress in order to create specific adaptations that supercede our previous skill level.

The overarching argument against weighted baseballs is some form of they are more stressful and thus more dangerous to throw with. Before we get into that argument, I think we need to understand the role of stress. Stress is NOT bad. In fact, we need stress in order to create specific adaptations that supercede our previous skill level. This process is called supercompensation and was made popular through Hans Seyle's General Adaptation Syndrome. When a system is placed under conditions of stress, the fitness level initially decreases. Supercompensation happens when the system has been given adequate rest to recover and develop a new fitness level that supersedes the previous baseline. These positive physiological adaptations are what we are chasing as coaches and athletes. If we are not stressing the system, we are not able to create these adaptations and improve. Thus, understanding the dosage, timing, and method of applying stress becomes the better question (which is a really good one, by the way).

The General Adaptation Syndrome, image source
While we now understand that stress isn't necessarily bad, it is worth looking at comparisons of stress levels between different weighted baseballs. Driveline Baseball has done research that compares the peak shoulder internal rotation torques and medial elbow torques for baseballs 4 through 7 ounces. Their findings are below:

see full article for more information, image source

What you'll notice is the peak torque levels actually significantly decrease when the ball weight increases. This is contrary to what most people think about overload implements – even though we know a lot of NFL quarterbacks have had success slinging 14-16 ounce footballs without needing elbow surgery. If anything, the baseballs that might be "more stressful" to the system are the underload baseballs.

At the same time, using a cookie cutter weighted baseball program is not your fast track to adding 5-10 mph (if anyone offers you a program and guarantees you x mph, don't walk away – run). Using weighted baseballs does not mean you are automatically going to gain velocity. Weighted baseballs are nothing more than a tool that you should have in your toolbox as a coach. Some people might really benefit from them and others may want nothing to deal with them. As a coach, you need to be able to assess each athlete and find the lowest hanging fruit before you dive into an aggressive weighted baseball program. The best programs are the ones that do a lot more than the run 'n gun weighted ball fun stuff that you see on Twitter (i.e. proper warm ups, recovery, building throwing capacity, developing a quality strength program, hydration, nutrition, etc.).

Weighted baseballs are not bad. They are a tool.

To sum it up: Weighted baseballs are not bad. They are a tool. If used correctly, they can be a great way to build high level movements that improve velocity, command, and arm health (see research for more on this). If you use them like an idiot (i.e. see study where kids players were making max effort throws with two pound balls), you're probably not going to get better."

 

[sidewinder22]

I consider myself "Mr. APT" since I'm prominently featured at the top left of page 47 (though I am better now!). I have a lot of thoughts on the issue.

1) I think the inclusion of Anthony Barela kind of weakens the argument. We are talking about arguably the furthest thrower on the planet, and he throws with spine extension/APT. Here is touring pro and **1021** rated golfer Austin turner throwing (shirtless) with clear spine extension/APT;


2) Perhaps the biggest point. I have brought this up before. Spine extension/APT is a chicken/egg problem:

A) is APT caused by a lack of core strength/mobility/physical limitation or

B) is APT caused by a flawed "internal model" of the throw?

If you ask me **today** I would say it's 80%B and 20%B. Indeed the better shape you are in the less this exists, but both AB and Austin Turner are in great shape and elite disc golfers (and by some coincidence both from Arizona) but exhibit APT and spine extension. I would put good money that even if you were an Olympic gymnast, you could still throw in spine extension/APT given your "internal model"/training/body mechanics or preferences

To me there does point to some sort of swing model that allows for high level distance *despite* spine extension/APT though it may not apply to everyone. I think there are bodies that make it work

Or maybe not by coincidence. Drew Gibson also has some APT going on, albeit not as much, and while he's not from Arizona he does live there and started playing there very early on in his career.

Uli has talked about how the best player in his area did a crow hop in his run-up so he started doing it too. Maybe there are/were some influential players in AZ that preach or play with APT.

AB, AT and Drew have all also dealt with some significant injuries.

Austin Turner Withdraws From Las Vegas Challenge - Livewire - Ultiworld Disc Golf

Austin Turner withdrew from the 2019 Las Vegas Challenge after his round ended Thursday.

discgolf.ultiworld.com

"Austin Turner withdrew from the 2019 Las Vegas Challenge after his round ended Thursday. He was sitting at 2-under par 57, 13 strokes off the lead.

Turner told Ultiworld Disc Golf the withdrawal was due to injury. He originally tweaked his back due to over hip rotation at USDGC.

"I did rehab all through the offseason. Felt great coming into this week," Turner said. "I got here on Monday for a practice round and I felt something pop again. Tried to fight it out and nothing was really going well."

Turner said he is still planning to play the Memorial Championship if his back recovers over the week."

"Dynamic Discs
October 20, 2016 ·
#TeamThursday features Drew Gibson who gives us a recap and a little insight on his offseason plans and how he will be working over that time.
I feel my season was pretty solid, I placed top 10 in 4 out of the 7 national tours. From learning an all new bag to my best place in NT points in my career (6th) is a big accomplishment!
Right now I'm just strength training, this year I had a back injury that plagued me most the season. I'm trying to strengthen all areas to prevent injuries going forward. In about 15 days I'll start field work and putting practice once I feel I'm in good physical shape to start building my game around it."

Hobbled Barela Battles Through Knee Injury, Out Front At SFO - Ultiworld Disc Golf

Wysocki tied in second, shot bogey-free with eagle

discgolf.ultiworld.com

"I can't really show off my distance right now because I'm on a hurt knee," Barela told Cory Murrell after the round. "I actually dislocated my knee cap last Friday. It makes me play a little more conservative. Can't go for the big shots."

 

[Sheep]

I find that getting into disc golf at an old age, without playing most other sports beforehand, is it's own challenge. I don't have skills from other sports to translate here. I played some basketball when I was younger, but other physical activities were hiking, swimming, and weight training. But none of those really translate into disc golf. That said, I'm still reading this "Fundamentals of Backhand Form" document, and that helps a lot. I'm in the group of people that Scott Stokely calls "overthinkers" and unfortunately we need materials like this to move past barriers. I will have questions once I finish reading it.

That's cause Scott burned most of his brain out with drugs and doesn't have much room to think anymore.

If you've ever talked to him in person, ugh, its .. just .. a lot. Dude is all over the map.

 

[Nick Carroll]

That's cause Scott burned most of his brain out with drugs and doesn't have much room to think anymore.

If you've ever talked to him in person, ugh, its .. just .. a lot. Dude is all over the map.

All my interactions with him have been fine. I wouldn't have suspected drug use had you not mentioned it here.

 

[blayed]

I agree with the inclusion of the third axis of safety besides power and efficiency. I think it does paint a better picture about "exceptions" in DG form.

On the subject of spine extension/APT. I agree 1000% that it blocks efficient action in the hips, this is confirmed by data from Golf. So in the context of "the good swing" and in presenting it as this forum's/SW22/brychanus' theory on how "the good swing" should go, I think it is fair to say that the spine should not be extended and the player should try to work on the "cobra" posture if at all possible.

Just my personal opinion is that despite some evidence that AT and Drew have had lower back injuries (and I really think only AT's can really be pointed to be directly correlated to his hip action) and AB's knee issue, I don't think that throwing with APT/Spine extension is inherently unsafe. For the tens of thousands of throws they do a year, having basically one or two relatively minor instances over the course of 7 years isn't very frequent (and could be confounded by other factors). Actually as a broader point, DG is a relatively low injury sport and relatively low impact overall compared to many sports. The vast majority of injuries we see on tour are overuse injuries in the shoulder and elbow, and touring pros throw orders of magnitude more shots per year than ams at higher speeds. Paul's mechanics are featured extensively in this guide and even he is sitting out for quite some time right now due to shoulder injury.

I think that's not to say you shouldn't be cautious, or warm up properly or work on the correct strength and mobility. I just find it hard to believe that AT/AB/Drew are ticking time bombs with their lower back. I also, to my original post, find it hard to believe that both AT and AB's spine extension is caused by a lack of core strength rather than their mechanics.

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks for following up blayed. Talking safety in general and then specifically APT a bit more just to stir up this thread. Here we go-a-Brychanusing (thanks discerdoo)!

Is disc golf "Safe"?
In the sports pantheon disc golf seems fairly safe. However, the studies I'm familiar with from Rahbek & Nelson suggest that perhaps the majority of players have reported a DG-related injury. Public writeups are here. Those studies and comparisons to other sports are in the first link.

Ouch: A Look At The Injury Bug, And How To Avoid It - Ultiworld Disc Golf

Seven statistics and three main keys point the way toward staying on the course

discgolf.ultiworld.com

Common Disc Golf Injuries - Discount Disc Golf

Explore the most common disc golf injuries, prevention, and treatment in this comprehensive guide to keep your game injury-free.

discountdiscgolf.com

Most of my colleagues and I in clinical sciences take a "lifespan" approach to health and safety. Clinicians like to separate injuries and diseases into acute, subacute, and chronic phases, as well as kinds and degrees of severity. Of course, these are categorical labels that are sometimes applied to continuous processes, and professionals debate somewhat stridently about cutoffs and whether thresholds are real or useful.

What is "safe" or "healthy"?
In the context of disc golf, I personally tend to think of safety as a multivariate, poorly understood problem. Analogies to other fields might help. Much like smoking, one cigarette probably won't put most people in the hospital. Maybe thousands of cigarettes will raise your risk of death by some mechanism by some estimable degree. It usually takes much longer to identify specific causal pathways for diseases, and to the chagrin of most of us, they're usually multicausal. There was a time just a few decades ago that everyone hoped cancer and dementias would be explained with single gene polymorphisms (e.g. BRCA for breast cancer, huntingtin gene for Huntingdon's). But most disorders are not, it turns out. We use statistics like odds ratios and long term studies to try and understand chronic disease processes, and it takes a very long time to make real progress in most fields for most problems. We usually have very rough, weak statistical associations before we understand causations and have good mechanical models that reliably and validly predict outcomes. And unfortunately, most scientists are still using statistics and research designs for studying groups to make inferences about individuals (this is one of my sub-specializations that is coming back with a fervor in my main discipline). These problems didn't all immediately go away with "AI" (which is still mostly statistical learning models on steroids).

In physical health sciences, you can apply many of these concepts.

Is APT "Safe"?
For APT specifically, for internal consistency, I have not myself suggested that APT is a "ticking time bomb" (not saying that you said I did, blayed, just being clear). Starting younger and adapting to a motion gives a body resilience. Every body is somewhat different, and some are likely more injury prone than others for a given task. In general, repeatable, high-performing throws without acute injuries are clearly possible in many contexts with many mechanics. Different motions are likely associated with different degrees of risk for acute, subacute, and chronic injuries in mild, moderate, or severe amounts of different kinds. Practicing a questionable motion without acute injury probably builds up specialized resilience too, which can sometimes set off a horse race between resilience and injury in the long run.

In that case, APT can clearly exist in a DG backhand without severe acute injuries to one or more tissues. It might have some nonzero risk of acute and severe injuries (nonzero means some risk greater than exactly zero). I personally suspect that many of the injuries are more likely to be insidious - chronic and mild or moderate. I would expect people throwing very fast with APT are more likely to get more injured approaching 40, when lower back instability and injuries become more common in general, and when many of the connective tissues start to lose elasticity and healing potential, spinal discs become more prone to bulging and rupturing, and in general muscles do not handle loads quite as well as they did when earlier in life. There are rare cases of resilience in other sports too - Jamie Moyer doesn't happen often in the MLB, and we'll never know if part of why he made it so far is he never threw quite as fast as most other top pitchers.

Will AB, turner, and Gibson never get hurt again? If they do, will it have to do with APT specifically, or interactions with other parts of form, or something else? If there is a risk, how large are the estimates for a given player, how acutely or chronically, how severe, and to what specific parts of the body?

Who is going to pay smart experts in relevant fields to study all this?

Strength and APT
I also would not personally make any assumptions about core strength for any particular player without testing them, nor would I want anyone to believe that mitigating APT or its presence is only about core muscular strength.

Paul McBeth and overuse injuries
Overuse injuries are real phenomena (I've had my share). Consider whether some overuse injuries are more likely to happen due to certain mechanics used repeatedly over long periods of time. Paul McBeth is my favorite speculative case. For instance, sidewinder once suspected that relative to his early form, by stretching his form out much more horizontally for control and flatter shots, Paul might be more vulnerable to jerk stresses that add up in the long run, especially as aging takes its toll. Was he right and we're starting to see the leading edge of that? If he threw with his old form, would he be less likely to be injured at the shoulder or somewhere else regardless of age? How would we ever know given that we can't run a true experiment?



Regardless of the answer to those questions, they are part of what started my obsession with mechanics in the first place - how do you know completely what "good" mechanics are for a given person, anyway? Does it change as their body changes? How? To me, it seems reasonable to say "safest power at lowest effort." But safety is multidimensional, and sometimes things can be at odds with one another in human health.

And no doubt, like an MLB pitcher, no matter how good your backhand form is, repeatedly throwing 70+mph (or whatever the elite level for your body type is) is probably mostly for the young for the minority who achieve it. Age is coming for us all.

These speculations, caveats, and more are why Fundamentals has numerous disclaimers and calls for data, including several in the first two pages of the document. Those are in some ways the two most important pages. But not considering safety speculations before the data arrive could carry some risk too - potentially to real people.

Coaching takeaway
All of that Brychanusing to say that for the forseeable future, I'll probably advise players against throwing with significant anterior pelvic tilt from a safety and efficiency perspective.

 

[Sewer bill]

Anecdotally I have hurt my back playing disc golf but I was trying to get a disc out a tree and not throwing a disc.

Also this: "And no doubt, like an MLB pitcher, no matter how good your backhand form is, repeatedly throwing 70+mph (or whatever the elite level for your body type is) is probably mostly for the young for the minority who achieve it." Cannot be stressed enough.

 

[blayed]

Also just want to reiterate that I agree that from a coaching or ideal mechanics perspective you should definitely advise people away from spine extension/APT. Just be aware that there are a few high profile counter examples (who coincidentally all live in Arizona???)

 

[Brychanus]

Also just want to reiterate that I agree that from a coaching or ideal mechanics perspective you should definitely advise people away from spine extension/APT. Just be aware that there are a few high profile counter examples (who coincidentally all live in Arizona???)

Definitely, all well-taken by me!

Who else is in the AZ crew? Thinking we basically have the bones of a naturalistic study there

I think Redalen spent some time working on form mimicking Gibson but Cole usually looks to have less APT to me

 

[sidewinder22]

AB doesn't go into APT/spine extension during the throw, but he sometimes jams up the followthru/pivot when you see him hop off the front leg. So I would not include AB in APT category.

The two pro players in red below have been dealing with spine injuries the past few seasons. Commonality is the funky chicken posture... APT, spine extended and trail elbow dragging behind the back.

 

[Brychanus]

^ill swap the other figure out for this in Fundamentals when I next get a chance!

 

[timothy42b]

Ball golfers, pitchers, batters, many rotational sports use hip - shoulder separation for more power.

That seems to cause some lower back issues. I wonder if sometimes the APT may be an result of trying to ease the back during the motion. When Tiger came back after a back injury you could see much reduced separation in his swing, and also reduced distance.

Sidewinder mentioned sometime back that it wasn't so much the amount of separation that is risky but the sequence of it.

To my eyes Shawn Clements demonstrates less separation, or at least less lag of separation in his videos.

T

 

[Sard0nyx]

Ball golfers, pitchers, batters, many rotational sports use hip - shoulder separation for more power.

That seems to cause some lower back issues. I wonder if sometimes the APT may be an result of trying to ease the back during the motion. When Tiger came back after a back injury you could see much reduced separation in his swing, and also reduced distance.

Sidewinder mentioned sometime back that it wasn't so much the amount of separation that is risky but the sequence of it.

To my eyes Shawn Clements demonstrates less separation, or at least less lag of separation in his videos.

T

This is an interesting thought because I've been thinking more about striding forward while coiling back as has been taught here on DGCR. That increases separation, but seems to put more stress on the back. But maybe there is a correct and a wrong way of doing it.

 

[bigherm]

In a DG throw, getting in to a deep power pocket is about the timing of moving your upper arm into position before the rotational force of your shoulders prematurely extend your elbow. Practice that timing from the top down. Initially with standstills and just moving upper arm. (It takes a couple of weeks of deliberate practice) and then slowly adding more shoulder rotation and momentum. If properly done it will feel that it takes less effort to throw because of the reduced inertia of the deeper power pocket. Don't expect it to happen over night.

I've been struggling to get into my power pocket before I close my shoulders. Sometimes I hit my left shoulder or worse, left nipple. Ouch! I've been told I have really smooth form and I can poke a mid out to 300. But I've been fighting elbow tendonitis because of getting the disc stuck behind.

A good brace is one of the most difficult moves in all of sports to learn (after about 16) and incredibly difficult to teach. Watch all the videos you can, and while you are learning focus on keeping your body as far from your plant as is possible. (It is too easy to climb on top of your plant foot)

After practicing both of these things for a while then going in front of a mirror to see it, my position starts to look like the power pocket position you see the pros have. For me it feels like I'm super backwards to the target when I reach the pocket and my leg is so far out from my body, but in reality it looks very athletic, balanced, and powerful. Then when I actually hit the ground with the plant I can feel the brace, which I've hardly ever felt (always over the top of my foot instead of behind it).

So thanks for the cues, Chris! Bombs away!

 

[txmxer]

Lots of great discussion in this thread--I'm going to have to put some extra time in to read and digest.

In scanning the thread, I saw talk about injuries or technique that leads to injuries. A lot of us on DGCR are well past prime (I'm 55, playing ~3 years). I don't know exactly how to ask this, but I know if I go 100%, I'm probably going to end up injured/hurting (I have injured myself) rather than progressing. What I'm wondering is there a sweet spot in technique that optimizes the throw versus body stress? How would you approach that?

 

[CoachChris]

Ball golfers, pitchers, batters, many rotational sports use hip - shoulder separation for more power.

That seems to cause some lower back issues. I wonder if sometimes the APT may be an result of trying to ease the back during the motion. When Tiger came back after a back injury you could see much reduced separation in his swing, and also reduced distance.

Sidewinder mentioned sometime back that it wasn't so much the amount of separation that is risky but the sequence of it.

To my eyes Shawn Clements demonstrates less separation, or at least less lag of separation in his videos.

T

There is much more evidence of injuries due to many years of one directional rotational movement in sports (ball golf) than there is to individualized pelvis/torso dissociation. If you are planning on throwing for a long time, throw both RH and LH backhands. Learn to apply force in both directions.

 

[Sheep]

There is much more evidence of injuries due to many years of one directional rotational movement in sports (ball golf) than there is to individualized pelvis/torso dissociation. If you are planning on throwing for a long time, throw both RH and LH backhands. Learn to apply force in both directions.

I'm going to guess what you're explaining there is the idea that throwing your body without a resistance is bad.

Equal and opposite such things.

As in, apply force in both directions to even things out.
im explaining it really basic, but. meh whatever.