Cinco de Flop at Giles Run

[KniceZ]

I've only participated in two other PDGA events so I don't have much to compare to but if Saturdays Cinco de Mayo at Giles Run on Saturday is normal I don't think I'll be doing very many more.

Yes the entrance fee was a reasonable $20 but
- no player packs : no discs, stickers, tags, nothing
- $20 for tournament discs : nothing but max weight Rocs and Teebirds
- No food
- No water out on the course (there was warm water bottles at the start)

Several of the Ams were pretty upset that their entrance fee seemed to be just going toward the pro payout.

The worst part - even though there weren't very many players and the director commented that we should move pretty quickly - it took 4 hours to play one round. Almost immediately the intermediate groups were stuck behind the Open foursome that was playing long tees to long baskets. For most of the round we had 3 to 4 groups waiting at the tee.

After the first round I was frustrated and decided I couldn't take it anymore. So I just played a quick solo round while everyone took an hour lunch. I was almost finished by the time they restarted.

Oh and I just checked and the results aren't posted yet either.

Maybe I shouldn't complain, I realize it takes a lot of work to put together a tournament but after this I'd rather just get a few friends , go play a couple rounds and use the $20 bucks to buy some beer!!

 

[bradharris]

I wouldn't be so quick to brush off tournaments entirely. However, I think you should alter your expectations a bit. Here are some observations from my experience playing tournaments (~30 in two years).

Players packs: I've played a number of tournaments with no players pack. However, they almost always do a funny money payout instead. This is the kind of thing you should know ahead of time though. Usually it's advertised when you sign up.

Fundraiser discs: $20 seems perfectly reasonable.

Food: Food provided at tournaments is very rare. I've seen it a few times, but not often. Usually though, there will be a lunch vendor or delivery person brought in to take lunch orders. But be prepared to eat on your own.

Water on the course: Again, this is rare. Bring a cooler with water bottles for yourself.

Am fees to pro payout: Yeah, I'm not a fan of this. The argument is that ams are paying to see the pros. But in a local tournament, the pros are really not worth paying to watch, and when you're all playing at the same time, you're not watching.

Pace of play: That course is a monster and will take some time to play. That's the big difference between tourney rounds and casual rounds. When you play a tournament, you have to be prepared for very slow play. The TD can say whatever he wants about pace, but in the end, each player is allowed 30 seconds to take each shot, and many will use that entire time.

Give the results some time. TDs are very busy, and not always because of disc golf. To expect results less than 48 hours after the tourney ended is a bit unreasonable. Weren't you there? Don't you know how you finished anyway??

 

[Jay Dub]

For a $20 entry fee I wouldn't expect any type of players package.
Most tournaments do not offer food or water unless the park does. Players know they will be outside for extended periods so they should bring their own water.
Tournament rounds are always slow, most times more that twice as long compered to playing a round with your buddies. I don't like that either but not much can be done about that.
Results aren't posted because I'm sure the TD has other things to do, it's Monday morning I bet the TD is at his regular job.

You could contact the TD and offer to help, I'm pretty sure they would appreciate it.

 

[KniceZ]

Maybe my expectations are too high and the other events I attended were above the norm.

I wasn't too worried about player packs - I've got more discs than I throw anyway. I was just passing on the complaints I heard from many players as we stood around at the tees.

As for the food and water - I didn't expect a free lunch, just an opportunity to purchase something. I did bring water but apparently not enough.

Scores from another event in area on Sunday are already posted. No I don't have any idea how I finished. By the time my group finished there was no one at the table, the cards were gone, and as I said I didn't stick around for another 4+ hour round that didn't started till 2:30.

My biggest frustration was the pace of play - I realize meets are slower. But if the director had put the players out on the course differently it wouldn't have been a problem. I didn't count but we only had maybe 9-10 groups. Start the pros, that were playing much longer holes, where no-one is behind them for a few holes. I think we spent a total of maybe 1 1/2 hours of that 4 hours just waiting at the tees.

It wasn't all bad - I got to play a new course and meet some new people. Just wanted to pass on some thoughts from a relative new comer.

 

[ferretdance03]

I've only participated in two other PDGA events so I don't have much to compare to but if Saturdays Cinco de Mayo at Giles Run on Saturday is normal I don't think I'll be doing very many more.

I can't wait to play in a tournament you run.

 

[Jay Dub]

I can't wait to play in a tournament you run.

That's not fair. The OP did say:

Maybe I shouldn't complain, I realize it takes a lot of work to put together a tournament

 

[bradharris]

Scores from another event in area on Sunday are already posted. No I don't have any idea how I finished. By the time my group finished there was no one at the table, the cards were gone, and as I said I didn't stick around for another 4+ hour round that didn't started till 2:30.

You weren't willing to stick around for the entire event, but you expect immediate score updates? You have to realize that disc golf tournaments are usually run by one person with a few volunteers helping out. These are not like big sporting events with a big staff.

My biggest frustration was the pace of play - I realize meets are slower. But if the director had put the players out on the course differently it wouldn't have been a problem. I didn't count but we only had maybe 9-10 groups. Start the pros, that were playing much longer holes, where no-one is behind them for a few holes. I think we spent a total of maybe 1 1/2 hours of that 4 hours just waiting at the tees.

No matter how the cards are spread, the fast groups eventually catch the slow ones. The round will move at the pace of the slowest group. That's an unavoidable fact of tournament play. The best thing a TD can do is plan for that and make sure to start the day early.

 

[KniceZ]

Just thought being relatively new at this - I'd share some thoughts. I should have given "constructive" criticism" rather than complaints. If you want more people to participate you have to step back and look at what would make it a better experience. There's always room for improvement.

Sorry to sound like a complainer.

 

[prerube]

I am sure this was one of timber's events. Contact him and he can explain any issues you have with the tourney. My first ever tourney was at giles run and i will not do any more there, but that is because of the course not the administration

 

[KniceZ]

Actually the course was in great shape. They had just mowed and according to the others in my group they cut back the briars in many places. They talked about how much better (less briars) it was compared to a couple years ago. I actually only went OB 4 times and all but one I could reach from IB.

 

[Stan McDaniel]

I'd rather just get a few friends , go play a couple rounds and use the $20 bucks to buy some beer!!

Now you're talkin' !!! Just make sure you don't litter the course.

 

[tom12003]

I am sure this was one of timber's events. Contact him and he can explain any issues you have with the tourney. My first ever tourney was at giles run and i will not do any more there, but that is because of the course not the administration

TD was Tom Coffin, not Timber.

 

[Timber]

I am no longer TD'ing events but having run numerous events at Giles Run I know what Tom Coffin went through to pull it off. He spent 5+ hours painting OB lines Friday in a lightning storm, went home and loaded the tournament materials, ran and played in the event Saturday, unloaded TD central and played in the other event you mentioned on Sunday (90 minutes from his house).

Speed of tournament play at Giles Run, from the white tees to silver pins, (Gold Par 61) will always be an issue. Hole lengths, proximity of OB, group calls on marking lies, wind and retrieval of errant throws from the thorns are issues which can stretch a 135 minute casual round into a 4+ hour tournament round. Usual White Tee to Silver basket tournament round is 4 hours, 10 minutes.

I was spotting hole 15 for most of both rounds and know of several groups that took nearly 20 minutes to play that hole. Scores I witnessed ranged from a 4 to a triple circle 10 and the average was pretty close to 6. The fact that I was spotting, flagging the point where the disc went OB and retrieving the discs probably improved speed of play on that hole by 10 minutes per group. That left 17 other holes where players had to fend for themselves.

I noticed there was a "disturbance in the cards" for the second round caused by some player that did not show up and never notified the TD. We ended up shuffling players around on the fly to prevent a twosome.

 

[ironmon]

I am the TD for the Cinco. Tim Beron is the course designer and
an amazing contributor to the maintenance of Giles Run which if
you havn't seen lately is one of the nicest courses in the region.
I'm not sure what we would do without Timbers presence at Giles.

I call Giles the Beauty and the Beast. Fairfax County Park Authority
has gone all out with the maintenance on this property.
Ofcourse there is always more that could be done!
But this disc golf course is looking absolulty awesome right now!

All the putting circles and literally miles of OB line were
freshly painted for this tournament. The painted OB lines
came into play/use on almost every hole.
I've played at a lot of venues and most recently the Seneca Creek
Soiree which I thought was in immaculate condition. Giles L2L
matches the championship quality of Senecas L2L layout.
Different (totally), but on the same level of competitive play.
many people are still scared of Giles because of the thorns
and the ticks. Giles is getting beat in quite well. After
spending two 12+ hour days on that land I only had two tick
bites.


KniceZ
I'm sorry you had an unpleaseant experience at the tournament.
Thank You Bradharris - your quick and knowledagable response
was very well written and addressed almost every criticism.

A couple of other items to consider:

* - Not one penny of AM entry fee went toward Pro payout.

* - The tournament disc a Pro Glow KC Roc can sell online for $30
we offer it as a deal/benefit to players at $20


Regarding speed of play:
Giles is a USDGC style Championship level course. In tournament
play without backups it takes Pros 3 1/2 hours to play the
Long to Long (L2L) format.

The tournament was lucky in that almost every card was
a threesome - the tournament was unlucky because not every card
was a threesome. There was a 4-some and for some reason, not
sure what it was. (We are all still trying to figure that out)
That 4-some took 4 1/2 hours to play the round.
There was really no way around that. no matter where you were
you would have run into the backup eventually.

The course is divided into two major sections seperated by a 15
minute walk with the far holes another 5-15 minutes walk.
Generally, we try to keep cards on the northern
nine to aleviate that walk. But your suggestion to add some spacer
holes is a good one. Usually, the 10-15+ minutes it takes to play
18 and then walk from 18 to 1
creates that space but cleary it did not in this case. In
hind sight all the AM cards should have been placed on the
southern side and, even better, seperated into a pro and am day.
Which is the plan for next year.

For folks that missed it - Our League will be playing
Giles Northern Nine (L2L; S2L) this Tuesday 6pm tee time.
All are invited.

 

[chrishysell]

oops, next time i'll read the entire thread...

 

[KniceZ]

I was in that foursome that took 4+ hours. The delay was purely because of the back up and since we were the last group to play #16 which is by far the toughest hole. But as I said earlier were stacked up 2 groups deep when we hit hole #4.

While the wait on #16 was frustrating it was interesting to watch one of the pros throw 4 staight discs OB.

Tom - It was obvious that a lot of prep time was spent getting the course ready. Sorry I didn't officially tell anyone that I was dropping, there wasn't anyone around to tell but the others in my foursome knew I wasn't sticking around.

Tim - Your support for the event on Hole #16 was outstanding. Your knowledge of the OB and how to retrieve discs was amazing.

 

[FredVegasDGC]

I'm going to back up KniceZ on this one. I was at the Sherando Spartan the day after the Cinco tourney and a lot of players that were there the day before were not happy on how slow the play was and how long it all took.

 

[jrawk]

from playing giles casually, i know i personally would not enjoy a tourney there as an ma1 or ma2 player. But i completely understand why advanced/experienced players would.

one note about CFR discs.... TDs don't have their choice of the entire Innova line. There are limited quantities of specific discs at any given point in time. Light discs are unpopular. So if there are any left over after the tourney, they are hard to sell to other locals or club members who didnt get one at the event. The entrance fee could have been $40 and made everyone take a disc, but instead ya'll had the option of purchasing one or not. If im ever in a tourney and don't like the player pack disc, i always grab the heaviest because i know it'll be easiest to resell.

 

[craigg]

When you first start playing tournaments, it may not be so easy to know what you are getting into. Choosing venues that are "beginner friendly" (and by that I mean new to tournaments - not necessarily new to disc golf) is a key ingredient to having good initial experiences. Giles is a big big course, and when tournaments occur on those kinds of courses (even C Tiers), tournament organizers generally like to show off their long layout. This is something a new tournament player might not consider before signing up. I hope one long tournament round doesn't dissuade the OP from playing events though.

Some things to expect from tournament play:
Speed of play - will ALWAYS be slower than your casual rounds, regardless of the size of the course
Lunch - unless it's advertised as being available, don't expect lunch to be provided
Water - always bring appropriate supplies, if and when a tournament supplies water, you will be pleasantly surprised instead of disappointed and thirsty.
Event Tiers - The bigger the tournament, the bigger the entry fee, the bigger the payout. For $20 at a C Tier - there shouldn't be more than $15 returned after pDGA fees and tournament expenses. But if you left before the end, how could you judge the quality of the purse/payout?
Research - When considering your next tournament, call the TD and ask about layout - what course will be played by which divisions, how long are rounds? etc. Ask a local about quality of past events. It's not too hard to set yourself up with good expectations, just takes a little effort. Stick with it and good luck!

 

[FredVegasDGC]

I believe the DGCR Mid-Atlantic Meet at Hawk Hollow last year spoiled him on tournaments.