Dave242's Review of Idlewild

[solomon.trenton]

i've seen people get pissed about someone's review before, but jeez...

switch to decaf dude.

if you'd have kept it objective, i could see a point to your argument. but the 'pimp hand' and philosophical 'broken man' comments steer my opinion to you just being a pissed off fanboy local. grnated i haven't read the review in question, but still.

this is all supposed to be fun, remember?

(nevermind you could've done all of this by private message too....)

nominee for post og the year? (thinking) umm yes

 

[Chainchaser]

Really if you wanted a duece on every hole then you should have went to boone woods it probably would have been a bit more up you alley!!

 

[Texconsinite]

Several things

I think this issue touches on more important topics than it seems, and aside from the intent of either party directly involved (dave242 and LStephens), most notably HBB and local involvement (or lack thereof) in course reviews. Some reviewers have touched on these already, but I wanted to bring them out in the open.

Dave, I commend you for the constructive way you responded to the "charges" being levelled against your review. Without a hint of anger or indignation. I like it, and Im glad this thing didn't turn into a cat fight, cuz those are for girls. It was very enlightening for me to hear more explanation aobut how much you deliberated over the the low rating you gave Idlewild, and the value of PREviews + Reviews. Its something I had been thinking about as well.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the basic letter grade categories style of reviewing that you mostly do. I can see how someone with your experience and skill would have a lot of very interesting opinions on the courses you play, and I would like to here them in more detail. I look forward to seeing you bulk out more of your reviews to include specifics behind why you gave courses an "A" or "B" in each area. I guess I just like reading long, in-depth writeups of courses, whether they be Rewiews or Previews, but just wanted to say that I hope someday you'll get caught up on all the reviews to add details, as your "form letter" explains, so I can read all the reviews of someone who has more different courses to compare to.

And to LStephens- I agree this could've been handled by PM, but at this point, too late its out there. The initial message did come across as quite harsh (with a dose of HBB), but I appreciated the way you recognized that and clarified the tone you were trying to convey. However, I can tell how much work you put into Idlewild, and I commend you for that. You probably know several of the courses in that area better than most people on this site, that much is obvious from your amazing walkthrough. I agree with what one previous poster said: That knowledge, that detailed hole by hole review, would be a wonderful thing to put on your course review of Idlewild, and the best promotion for the course you could really do on this site, since I can tell how much pride you have in Idlewild, seeing how you have a hand in keeping it great. You are one of the people "in the loop" on Idlewild, and that means you are the kind of person who we absolutely NEED a great review from, since few others know more than you. Something that's always bothered me is that just about every course has wonderful locals like you, who know them extremely well, inside and out. Yet how many courses have an extremely detailed writeup by one of the local experts? Not enough. Too many local reviews are "3 words and five stars" which annoys me. They know so much that they didn't tell us. Thus, I'd love to see all this detail put into your review, because your first post is about 10 times as long and detailed as the review.

Your HBB is understandable in that you love Idlewild, and from what I can tell it looks like wonderful course, but I think its a slippery slope once you start "reaching out" (to put it lightly) to other reviewers who played the course and perhaps don't agree with your opinions of it. From there, its a short distance to the people who vote down any review of DelaVeaga, Flip City, or Idlewild that gives it less than 4.5 or 5.0 stars (death by stoning, if you will). Sorry to single certain courses out, but frankly those three (in addition to being the highest rated) are also courses that IMO have gotten a reputation for this type of "crush the infidel"-style HBB.

I sometimes worry that I might play one of these courses and have to review it. What if I personally thought Idlewild was just a 3 star course (doubt it, but its possible)? I've played courses before and given them the lowest rating by far of anyone else, and wondered if my review would suffer a death by stoning. I know you didn't intend to stone Dave per-se, but please be careful what something like this looks like to people who might think about coming to your area and reviewing your course. They think, whoa, better give it a 5 or else death by stoning. Again, I'm pretty sure that wasn't your intent, since one of your main issues was with perceived factual incongruities in Dave's review vs what you knew to be "true", not mainly the rating itself. However, would you have started this thread if Dave had written the exact same review, making the exact same statements, but given Idlewild 5 stars instead of 3? I think not. So, regardless of your intent, which i personally believe was corrective and helpful in this case, there's still that negative, stereotypical HBB undertone of voting down any dissenting ratings on the home course, which frankly bothers me. You seem very reasonable and articulate, I hope you don't tread down that path.


Oh darn, I did it again. I went on and wrote a Manifesto. Well, that's my lengthy opinion, take it for what its worth. If you disagree with everything I say, that's cool with me, I just wanted to lay it out there for everyone to chew on, since I think we could all learn something from this (I know I have). Lets all just do a good job writing reviews and let the averages work themselves out

 

[REDARMY]

hbb?

home boy bias?

 

[TerryP]

Lee Stephens? Did you happen to lose a Orange,Discraft,something at Mesker Park last year at the Pumpkin Shootout(over the zoo fence)?

If you did,I found it. Gave it to a tourney guy that might run into ya.

Although,I may get it back and just come up there and play. I have a aunt that lives in Florence and this thread makes me want to come up there and play this course....

....and yes what the hell is hbb?

 

[Texconsinite]

HBB= Home boy bias, the tendency for people to rate their home courses higher because its their home course. For example, lets say people who visit your home course from out of state tend to rate it lower than you and all the other locals do. Doesnt make you or me wrong, just means theres possibly some HBB. It happens. Im sure we've all done it at some point. Thats why it helps to have multiple reviews for one course.

The bad kind of HBB that I also refer to is local players getting angry and voting "not helpful" in droves on any review that gives their beloved famous home course a lower grade than they think it should have (usually 5 stars) regardless of how well the offending review articulates its writer's point of view and justifies the rating.

Im not calling Idlewild anything less than a perfect course, because I havent played there so I wouldn't know, but the fact remains that diversity of opinions isn't something to just crush out of hand, provided they are well-supported opinions. The outsider who thought the course was ok could potentially go into more detail about potential shortcomings or imperfections, things they found annoying about a course, vs someone who drank the kool-aid, knows every inch of the course, might just not notice, or not consider faults. Neither one is wrong, they just notice and emphasize different things, like the excellent comparison made earlier btw DGCR and rottentomatoes.com, which averages movie reviews from different critics on a scale between "fresh"(good) and "rotten"(bad), like they do here with course ratings

 

[Dave242]

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the basic letter grade categories style of reviewing that you mostly do. I can see how someone with your experience and skill would have a lot of very interesting opinions on the courses you play, and I would like to here them in more detail. ........ guess I just like reading long, in-depth writeups of courses......

Thanks for your kind words in your post. If you are interested, here is my "manifesto" on the way I review/grade:

What is the difference between saying "Holes with good risk/reward – B-" and "About half the holes really make you think about what shot you want to throw and will punish you fairly and appropriately for failing to choose the right shot or execute well. I like that."? Not much, IMO.

I like the in-depth PREviews OK, but frankly I can usually much more quickly get a better PREview from a quick glance at the pictures, course map, hole length listing, par listing and the course description on the first page. That is objective data....and something this site does superbly - huge props to Tim as well as all the contributors of data, links and pictures! The PREviews I have read not always, but way too often IMO have too much unstated subjective or regional/local bias written into them to add much. Why slog through all that if you already know what you need to know?

That is why I like to focus much more on the things that I find the course has to offer that feeds my addiction. What about the course really draws me back to itself? My preference would be to read others' reviews/critiques rather than simply PREviews of the course. I might not agree with many of them, but it would be much more interesting reading to me. Of course, I respect your preference for wanting to read good PREviews….as do many others as indicated by the ratio of more "not helpfuls" to "helpfuls" on my reviews. I am fine with that.

Additionally I find no value in adding/subtracting to my grade due to things like clean bathrooms, mud after rain, good signage, ample parking, or friendly locals. If I want all that, I'll just go to my local Home Depot.

What I want is a great course design that feeds my addiction….that is on a beautiful piece of land. I fully realize that course designers are restricted in many ways: what land they are given, what parts of the park they can use, what trees can be removed (or planted), erosion control concerns, etc. IMO, any course is better than no course and I have great appreciation for all of them……but again, I go out of my way to play courses that feed my addiction -and my personal criteria are:
1) Holes with good risk/reward - good shots/decisions are rewarded and poor ones are punished
2) Holes that have rewarding birdie opportunities for me. I am a 950-ish player who throws 300' accurately, 350' max
So, almost all holes shorter than 220 are boring to me as are par 3 holes between 370' and 500' (I can't realistically expect a deuce, a 3 is boring, and a 4 is frustrating)
3) More wooded than open - lots of variety of shots required caused by hole shape and topography
4) Natural beauty (Appalachian beauty preferred) and/or feeling of seclusion
5) Multi-shot holes with defined landing zones - good risk/reward on "I'm going for it" choices and multiple options/decision to play them. Since most courses do not have these types of holes, this is a bonus to my rating, not a demerit if not present.

 

[littleshoe]

I think we need an appendix and a concordance for all the extra stuff we need to understand your reviews Dave

But seriously, why call it a PREview? Review is used in the correct context.

review - n - a critical article or report, as in a periodical, on a book, play, recital, or the like; critique; evaluation

 

[Dave242]

But seriously, why call it a PREview? Review is used in the correct context.
review - n - a critical article or report, as in a periodical, on a book, play, recital, or the like; critique; evaluation

That is correct....and the point I was trying to make. Most of what is written now (at least the ones people find as helpful per their votes) are not "critical articles or reports". Rather, they are accurate descriptions of the course and ammenities. These are very useful for people trying to understand what the course has to offer before showing up.....in other words, they are useful as PREviews.

As has been mentioned upthread, to complement these previews this site is a perfect place to have reviews such as are written for movies, restaurants, books, etc.

 

[Greg Layton]

That is correct....and the point I was trying to make. Most of what is written now (at least the ones people find as helpful per their votes) are not "critical articles or reports". Rather, they are accurate descriptions of the course and ammenities. These are very useful for people trying to understand what the course has to offer before showing up.....in other words, they are useful as PREviews.

As has been mentioned upthread, to complement these previews this site is a perfect place to have reviews such as are written for movies, restaurants, books, etc.

So, let me get this straight... everyone else is writing "PREviews" and has the wrong idea about what this site is about... and you're the only one who is actually reviewing courses? :|

 

[Dave242]

I did not say they have the "wrong idea". Quite the opposite - they have the right idea.......and reviews/critques would be a good complement I believe. I am not the only one either, BTW....not by a long shot. I see plenty of people giving their opinions (some state that it is their opinion, others do not).

Here is why I think having only/mainly previews will eventually be a problem to the keeping this site interesting and useful:
1) It is all based on opinion and personal taste/preference anyhow (subjective)
2) Why would anyone really want to add their review as the 40th review when everything they can possibly say has already been said at least 30 times? And, who wants to read the same thing over and over 30+ times?
3) The rating numbers (except for the very worst and very best courses) will become a meaningless hodge-podge over time since they will become the average of a whole bunch of people with widely varying course preferences and grading approaches.

 

[agentdozzer]

I finally read dave's review and all i have to say is if idlewild is like getting beat up by your sister than thats one bad *****. Not trying to stir anything up but when i get beat up there it feels like a whole nfl team lined up on the course and hit me after each hole.

 

[Greg Layton]

3) The rating numbers (except for the very worst and very best courses) will become a meaningless hodge-podge over time since they will become the average of a whole bunch of people with widely varying course preferences and grading approaches.

I think I've given up trying to figure out how your method of reviewing is superior to other's and how everyone else's reviews are merely complementary to yours... but this #3 comment doesn't make any sense at all. How exactly does a large number of reviews and opinions translate into a meaningless hodge-podge?

The more reviews a course has, the better.

 

[Dave242]

Who said my way of reviewing is better? I certainly didn't. I'm just giving (obnoxiously) full-diclosure that I am rating/reviewing based on my opinion/personal tastes.

I'll try to explain: I am talking about the rating number. Since everybody has their own criteria on how to rate/grade courses (the number of discs/dots they assign), you can consider the numbers as random and the average will tend towards some center point (probably 3 discs) as the number of reviews/ratings increase.

Where you can not consider the numbers random are the courses that are exceptionally good, or bad. Almost everybody will agree and rate them highly and the few that don't will not affect the average significantly. So, "the cream will rise to the top" for the exceptional courses (and visa versa for the exceptionally low-rated courses). Does that make sense?

 

[Greg Layton]

I'll try to explain: I am talking about the rating number. Since everybody has their own criteria on how to rate/grade courses (the number of discs/dots they assign), you can consider the numbers as random and the average will tend towards some center point (probably 3 discs) as the number of reviews/ratings increase.

I think this is where we disagree. I seem to think that the average won't trend towards 3 discs, but towards what the course actually is. I do understand what you're getting at now, though.

 

[DGtourist]

In my opinion......... Dave, you should write a "manifesto" for each review. A letter grade falls short of explaining how you got to that grade even with a cut & paste criteria. It only says that it meets or doesn't quite meet by a certain shade or degree your presented levels you prefer. But there is more to courses than a grade. Adjectives adverbs verbs on regular nouns such as "baskets" or "teepads" that reflect your feelings about said item will always, in my opinion, have more to share from you than that a letter A-F.

BTW I'm very pleased with the manner you have handled all of this. I bet you are a very cool dude, worthy of a few of my beers.

 

[Dave242]

I think this thread needs to die as I am a relative newbie here and am not so comfortable making it all about me or my approach. I have found a lot of the dialog here thought-provoking and helpful.

As my last post before this thread hopefully fades into the bitbucket sunset I need to post a picture of one of the wildest rides one of my discs ever took....on Idlewild hole 15. (I have a crappy camera on my phone and had it on lo-res).

On my third throw (an attempt to get into easy approach range) I threw my favorite beat-in Roc. A stiff left to right cross wind flipped it over (I throw lefty) and I lost sight of it as it headed harmlessly into the rough on the left side near the bottom of the hill.

I went to where I thought it would be and it wasn't there. After 45 minutes of looking I gave up. I had spent 20 minutes raking the creek at the bend. I had walked on the other side of the creek twice to see if it was on the near side bank. I finally gave up.

That's when I finally saw it. I laughed in disbelief and relief, took this picture, and dropped in my putt for a 4 (that is unless I take a 3 minute lost disc penalty....or 15 of them). I have no idea how that disc rolled that far, hopped the crick, and leaned up under the bridge. Maybe some prankster will eventually confess.

Idlewild giveth, and Idlewild taketh away!

 

[Texconsinite]

That is a pretty insane shot

 

[NDABRUSH]

I may think dave242's reviews come up short for helping me picture the course and what it was like through his eyes(except for his final vote), at least he isn't a local that writes 1 or 2 lines and votes 5 to pump up his course rating. Which idlewild doesn't have that I can tell. Most reviews are people that traveled sometimes great distances to play it and have no local bias. just look through the top 10 and its obvious which ones are artificially enhanced. lol

 

[jace]

:: pops popcorn :: :ulls up a chair::

lol - I am so sad I missed this thread..... i must have been playing DISC GOLF!