Disc Golf Pro Tour

[ToddL]

Previous image was too big. Reposting.

http://i.imgur.com/ZPsMyvh.jpg

 

[Reniger]

...

 

[DavidSauls]

Looks a lot better when combined like that.

(Almost looks like the PDGA and DGPT worked together on scheduling)

Thanks, Todd.

 

[sidewinder22]

What about the World Tour?

 

[JohtoVillage]

GCC apparently passed the "top Pro" test last year but I haven't seen the temp courses. I didn't say anything about basic course design specifics being better which will hopefully become more of a factor down the road. For what it's worth, Dodge is sometimes more onboard with using stats to improve courses for the following year. Let's see what happens with Ledgestone next year.

I would sure love to see those said stats from someone at the PDGA. The lack of communication from the PDGA is laughable, at best. It is frustrating to see a comment like this from you, considering that the PDGA has not sent me anything about my event this year except for this email ABOUT Eureka from Steve West:

I'm starting to analyze the scores from Ledgestone for the Game Development team.

A side benefit is that I can calculate the pars that come closest to the official definition. You got the pars for Eureka Temp exactly right. That's the first perfect score I've seen.

The email contained nothing else about Eureka or any issues with the course. I received this email three days ago and have heard nothing else about my event from the PDGA except for what Brian Graham was quoted as saying in the Ultiworld article.

 

[Mocheez]

I would sure love to see those said stats from someone at the PDGA. The lack of communication from the PDGA is laughable, at best. It is frustrating to see a comment like this from you, considering that the PDGA has not sent me anything about my event this year except for this email ABOUT Eureka from Steve West:

I'm starting to analyze the scores from Ledgestone for the Game Development team.

A side benefit is that I can calculate the pars that come closest to the official definition. You got the pars for Eureka Temp exactly right. That's the first perfect score I've seen.

The email contained nothing else about Eureka or any issues with the course. I received this email three days ago and have heard nothing else about my event from the PDGA except for what Brian Graham was quoted as saying in the Ultiworld article.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how angry were you after reading Brian's comments?

 

[Cgkdisc]

I would sure love to see those said stats from someone at the PDGA. The lack of communication from the PDGA is laughable, at best. It is frustrating to see a comment like this from you, considering that the PDGA has not sent me anything about my event this year except for this email ABOUT Eureka from Steve West:

I'm starting to analyze the scores from Ledgestone for the Game Development team.

A side benefit is that I can calculate the pars that come closest to the official definition. You got the pars for Eureka Temp exactly right. That's the first perfect score I've seen.

The email contained nothing else about Eureka or any issues with the course. I received this email three days ago and have heard nothing else about my event from the PDGA except for what Brian Graham was quoted as saying in the Ultiworld article.

PDGA has no official position I'm aware of regarding scoring stats on a course being an issue at this point. However, it's a fact waivers for non-standard design elements must be obtained for their use on Lake Eureka temp. Northwood was much better this year so thanks for those improvements. Whether the need for waivers has an impact, it's unknown since Ledgestone was already in an NT rotation with other events. So not being an NT some years doesn't necessarily indicate a perceived problem from PDGA admin.

What I was pointing out is that Dodge has been more progressive trying to get better hole designs using stats feedback at least on courses he oversees like Maple Hill. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Maple Hill has any design elements needing a waiver?

 

[JohtoVillage]

On a scale from 1 to 10, how angry were you after reading Brian's comments?

I was frustrated, but I emailed Brian and all is well. I have supported the PDGA for many years and will continue to do so.

PDGA has no official position I'm aware of regarding scoring stats on a course being an issue at this point. However, it's a fact waivers for non-standard design elements must be obtained for their use on Lake Eureka temp. Northwood was much better this year so thanks for those improvements. Whether the need for waivers has an impact, it's unknown since Ledgestone was already in an NT rotation with other events. So not being an NT some years doesn't necessarily indicate a perceived problem from PDGA admin.

What I was pointing out is that Dodge has been more progressive trying to get better hole designs using stats feedback at least on courses he oversees like Maple Hill. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Maple Hill has any design elements needing a waiver?

Your comment just came across as calling out my event for needing to make changes at Eureka. I have certainly reviewed the stats at Eureka and plan on making adjustments again, including the removal of stroke and distance on most of the holes. I use stats extensively to adjust the course.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Your comment just came across as calling out my event for needing to make changes at Eureka. I have certainly reviewed the stats at Eureka and plan on making adjustments again, including the removal of stroke and distance on most of the holes. I use stats extensively to adjust the course.

That's all good. The stats continue to indicate changes were still needed there so glad you plan to follow through.

 

[JohtoVillage]

That's all good. The stats continue to indicate changes were still needed there so glad you plan to follow through.

Feel free to send me any thoughts you have via email.

 

[stratedge]

This was a really insightful post, thank you. I'd be curious for your thoughts on this follow up: I've also thought about the e-sports model as one that can compare to disc golf, but have always thought that a driving factor behind e-sports being able to grow quickly is that potential sponsors are selling products that are more expensive than disc golf equipment, thereby bringing a larger influx of money. Is this something you've observed, or am I way off base?

I think that's highly debatable, because it's not really about what you sell but the demographic you're hitting and if you appeal to people with disposable income then there's no limit to how you can draw it out of them. The males age 12-29 (my own made up guess) that make up the bulk of the gaming spectators don't actually have a high disposable income of their own, but on the other hand they're dumb and free of any real obligations in life yet. You could argue that disc golf appeals to pretty much everybody so long as they have courses to play, and that footprint is growing rapidly.

Got lots of money and like Disc Golf? There's no shortage of ways to spend it. Carts, getting your discs custom died, tryout out all kinds of discs, and me personally I take vacations around disc golf and spend a lot of money just to get out and play different courses. And tourism boards are starting to recognize this if you pay attention... locally, I know a guy working on 3 courses in one small tourist town (Drumheller, AB), and the local tourism board is kicking in $4k/course because they see people coming to play the first course.

The largest prize pool contributors in esports is actually the viewers themselves. Last month the largest esports tournament ever was hosted in Seattle, it was the Dota 2 International 6. It consisted of 16 teams competing for a total of about $20 million. $1.5 million was added by the game publisher, the rest came from crowd sourcing. The publisher of the game sold in-game cosmetic items as a way to crowd source their world championship, 25% of the proceedings from the sale of these items went to the prize pool. So the financial model is quite unlike anything we see in traditional sports, and this model leads to far bigger prizes than what we get in traditional sports as well.

The bolded sounds a lot like TFR discs to me...selling something exclusive for the purposes of fundraising. The USDGC, for example, always got a good chunk of change out of the Champion Rocs, especially early on.

Unfortunately, there's a ceiling on that sort of fundraising because eventually the market gets saturated or too specialized or after-market bubbles burst. It's not a bottomless well. There are only so many "next great things" manufacturers can come up with.

JC17393 hits it, and taking a step back, the fundraiser items are just a different form of the same model that exists in every sport. It's a cycle of money flowing from spectators to vendors to pros, but the creation of fundraiser items is just marketing. That is, there's still no arguing in that model that (a) the vendor is critical in the flow and (b) the vendor still benefits themselves, but they're smart enough to see 2 moves ahead to profitability.

This was lame poor sportsmanship that isn't accepted in most sports.

What should have happened:

...

More appropos: (50s in)

Players got DQ'd for it at the Olympics. This happens more than people know, though... it's only the ones who are stupid about it who get caught.

 

[stratedge]

I'm not sure how well you can correlate the spectator experience for e-sports to disc golf. I would think that, watching e-sports, there is a lot happening, a lot of action and activity, compared to disc golf (or much of anything else). Just speculation on my part, as I don't play electronic games, and only found out a few hours ago that anyone watches them.

I don't think that's important, really, because the core principal is that each one can appeal a great deal to it's own participants but has very little if any appeal to non-participants.

That having been said, you're right. Gaming isn't furious like you might think, most of the games have a tempo like basketball of build up and then climax repeating in a cycle. But the key is that disc golf is still golf, and so I would agree it has presentation challenges. Most sports you could just put a camera on it, commentate, and send it out live. But then ball golf does it and draws people in, so... you make your own ceilings.

 

[Eco81]

What did Nikko throw on that 360 drive on hole 18?

 

[onemilemore]

What did Nikko throw on that 360 drive on hole 18?

Destroyer

 

[Steve West]

I would sure love to see those said stats from someone at the PDGA. The lack of communication from the PDGA is laughable, at best. It is frustrating to see a comment like this from you, considering that the PDGA has not sent me anything about my event this year except for this email ABOUT Eureka from Steve West:

I'm starting to analyze the scores from Ledgestone for the Game Development team.

A side benefit is that I can calculate the pars that come closest to the official definition. You got the pars for Eureka Temp exactly right. That's the first perfect score I've seen.

The email contained nothing else about Eureka or any issues with the course. I received this email three days ago and have heard nothing else about my event from the PDGA except for what Brian Graham was quoted as saying in the Ultiworld article.

I was running 2015's numbers for comparison and some issues came up that I need to fix. When the numbers are ready, you'll get them at the same time as the GDT.

 

[cheese dog]

It sure flew like one, hell I was even rooting for the guy.

 

[JTacoma03]

While live broadcasts are indeed pretty slow to watch, the commentary was great, JVD active in the chat was a nice touch, and the production level was stellar for a live DG broadcast. I'm very interested in what will come in future years.

I think if they can get to a level where Jamie and accompanying commentators can be in a booth, watching multiple cards on monitors and doing their commentary, while 3-4 cards are covered at once - switching back and forth like the PGA - we will really have a truly great live experience. I understand what a monumental capitol investment that requires for equipment, crew, setup, transport, ect. However, with 1-2 cards, lots of backups and walking, and the commentators getting winded and having to hush their voices, it does make for a less exciting viewing environment.

And, do not take these statements in any way as a dig. We would all be winded doing what these guys are doing and Mr. Thomas' respect for players and keeping himself to a minimal distraction is greatly commendable.

I am 100% with you on the booth. I was not great at Brewster Ridge, the course design was fun, but a little tough for media between the small spaces and constant traversing of hills. The fact that I was whispering and breathing heavily made me cringe when I watched it back.

I really enjoyed being on site with the Smashboxx crew this time around, and Robert McCall is a great addition. His voice is sexy, and I told his wife so.

Just as an in-general FYI for anyone interested as to why it hasn't been done lately - there are some hurdles to the booth method, as it would require a not insignificant increase in the cost of the production, and it carries a risk of having the signal issues of 2-3 years ago if we can't get a wired internet connection with minimum 10-15mbps upload.

 

[CreemCheese]

I usually don't see live comments, but happened to be on the computer (not streaming through the tv) and it was nice having JV in there. I too like the idea of a booth commentator, might cut down on some of the "dirty breathing" that was being commented on Saturday.

 

[Streets]

I usually don't see live comments, but happened to be on the computer (not streaming through the tv) and it was nice having JV in there. I too like the idea of a booth commentator, might cut down on some of the "dirty breathing" that was being commented on Saturday.

It's usually wise to avoid YouTube/Live comments.

 

[jvphobic]

In general YouTube comments are bad. But I feel that with the moderators that we have in place, the Live comments are not too bad. And this past weekend they were quite good.

As far as a booth situation. Jamie is correct in that there are hurdles to a booth situation. I have said before that I would love to have a booth to go to. It would eliminate the heavy breathing of the on site commentators. Our hurdles are:

1. The booth people need to be in the same location as the switching guy (me). So either I need to travel to them, or they need to travel to me. Or we meet somewhere. Oh, and that place needs to have great internet.

2. We only have 2 cameras per hole. Any more than that feels like a waste when we can cover other holes. And booth people are seeing the same thing you are. It isn't like we have extra cameras or shots that would give them extra insight.

3. A booth would work better on a more open course where you can easily track discs. Wooded courses could be a nightmare. How many times do you remember DGPT booth guys guessing where shots landed... and being way wrong?

I think we will get there. It is just gonna take time.

In the mean time, I think getting more wireless mics for our commentators could help. They can maintain their distance like Robert was able to all weekend. Being wired to the camera operator is limiting.