Double Reverse Mando

[Lyonsjack]

For the past few weeks I've been putting together a trip to go to Bucksnort DGC in Pine, CO. When reading the course description a "double reverse mando" is mentioned. How does that work?

 

[whitefedora]

Edit- nevermind

 

[scarpfish]

Just going off a hunch here, but perhaps its where you have two mandatory objects but have to pass outside of them (left of the left mando or right of the right mando).

Ahh, never mind....

http://bucksnort.healthtrains.net/Course_Rules.html


MANDO'S - There is only one mandatory at the BuckSnort (#18) and it is a "Double Reverse Mando" - The mando signs point outward. This means that you must either go around to the right or the left. You can not go through the middle. If you miss the "mando" you must throw back through the middle between the mando signs then throw around the outside to get to the basket. There is no drop-zone.

Although, that's generally not how you handle a missed mando.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Inverted double mando.

 

[mm1315]

It's also referred to as an outside mando, where you have to travel "outside" the designated area. We have one at a local course 7 Oaks on the first hole, there is a swampy area directly in front of you that you don't want to walk through so they put mandos on the outermost trees forcing you to go outside the swamp

 

[Noill]

Once over the rise the basket can be seen between the trees. Note that the Mando signs point outward. The path of the disc must pass outside the Mando signs and may not pass between the trees. Thus the name.

*from the course site*

 

[Cgkdisc]

Technically, not a legal structure under current PDGA rules since Missed Mando line from one tree extends indefinitely across the other fairway so you're always missing one mando when making the other one. However, we're looking at getting it into the next rulebook.

 

[Jimb]

Never played the course, and I'm sure that there may be some point to that mando that I'm not getting, but it just seems silly to me. And I'm generally not opposed to most mandos.

The other course that has the wet area to avoid, and thus a double mando, now that makes sense.

 

[Smigles]

Technically, not a legal structure under current PDGA rules since Missed Mando line from one tree extends indefinitely across the other fairway so you're always missing one mando when making the other one. However, we're looking at getting it into the next rulebook.

Just make the mando line between the two trees, no infinite extention needed.

 

[DiscJunkie]

I have never played this course, so there may be some overwhelming reason why a double-reverse-inverse-whammy-doodle-outside mando makes sense.
I hope nobody is insulted by this...but that just seems stupid.

Can you even see the mando from the tee? If not, I'm double flabbergasted.

Full disclosure: I am opposed to most mandos, except for safety reasons. Using a mando for a course design element has always felt more like Putt-Putt than disc golf. Why don't we just put a windmill in front of the basket to make it REALLY fun?

 

[JC17393]

Just make the mando line between the two trees, no infinite extention needed.

My geometry might be a bit rusty, but I think by definition, a line has no end. Thus the flaw in the rule that complicates the legality of this type of mando. All that is really needed is to include some language allowing there to be a mandatory line segment determined by two fixed points, such as the trees in the examples here.

Based on the OP, it would seem there are two separate reasons that that mandatory would require a waiver from the Tour Manager to be used in PDGA competition. The first being the rule conflict Chuck points out. The second being the use of "unwinding" to play a missed mando. The OP notes there is no drop zone, but in the absence of a designated drop zone, the next shot after a missed mando is a re-throw from the previous lie (+ one penalty throw).

 

[TAFL]

Full disclosure: I am opposed to most mandos, except for safety reasons. Using a mando for a course design element has always felt more like Putt-Putt than disc golf. Why don't we just put a windmill in front of the basket to make it REALLY fun?

That would make so many holes much more interesting. As does the use of a mando.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Just make the mando line between the two trees, no infinite extention needed.

I understand what you're saying and players can certainly understand the intent of this structure. But a missed mando line officially has no end other than the OB boundary of the course.

 

[scarpfish]

I think the issue here is if you miss the mando, there's a lot of dispute (under normal PDGA rules) on how you handle your drop. On a normal mando, or even a double mando, in the absence of a designated drop zone, you go 1 meter in from the mando object that you went the wrong side of. Here, since you're going the wrong side of two objects in this case, which of them do you mark 1 meter from?

And yeah, I know the local rules say go back between the trees, but that procedure is more convoluted and time consuming than it needs to be (what happens if you miss outside of the trees going backwards?). Just make a drop zone or require a rethrow from the previous lie.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think the issue here is if you miss the mando, there's a lot of dispute (under normal PDGA rules) on how you handle your drop. On a normal mando, or even a double mando, in the absence of a designated drop zone, you go 1 meter in from the mando object that you went the wrong side of. Here, since you're going the wrong side of two objects in this case, which of them do you mark 1 meter from?

And yeah, I know the local rules say go back between the trees, but that procedure is more convoluted and time consuming than it needs to be (what happens if you miss outside of the trees going backwards?). Just make a drop zone or require a rethrow from the previous lie.

Not under current rules. Default drop zone if one is not marked is a rethrow from previous lie, not the old default near the mando object.

 

[JC17393]

I think the issue here is if you miss the mando, there's a lot of dispute (under normal PDGA rules) on how you handle your drop. On a normal mando, or even a double mando, in the absence of a designated drop zone, you go 1 meter in from the mando object that you went the wrong side of. Here, since you're going the wrong side of two objects in this case, which of them do you mark 1 meter from?

And yeah, I know the local rules say go back between the trees, but that procedure is more convoluted and time consuming than it needs to be (what happens if you miss outside of the trees going backwards?). Just make a drop zone or require a rethrow from the previous lie.

The bolded is not true at all. It's not even correct under old rules.

The default lie without a designated drop zone used to be a within 1 meter of a line extending up to five meters to the correct side of the mando and perpendicular to the line determined by the target and the mando object.

But that rule hasn't been in play since 2012. The 2013 updated rules no longer call for a default drop zone if none is designated. In the absence of a drop zone, the player must re-throw from the previous lie.

 

[scarpfish]

Not under current rules. Default drop zone if one is not marked is a rethrow from previous lie, not the old default near the mando object.

Which still solves the problem a whole lot better than what they have.

Still a lot of people playing missed mandos the old way, and I'd bet it happens in PDGA events more than we'd think.

 

[urwatuh8]

Technically, not a legal structure under current PDGA rules since Missed Mando line from one tree extends indefinitely across the other fairway so you're always missing one mando when making the other one. However, we're looking at getting it into the next rulebook.

I definitely played in a C-tier a couple years ago that had one of these...

 

[urwatuh8]

I think the issue here is if you miss the mando, there's a lot of dispute (under normal PDGA rules) on how you handle your drop. On a normal mando, or even a double mando, in the absence of a designated drop zone, you go 1 meter in from the mando object that you went the wrong side of. Here, since you're going the wrong side of two objects in this case, which of them do you mark 1 meter from?

And yeah, I know the local rules say go back between the trees, but that procedure is more convoluted and time consuming than it needs to be (what happens if you miss outside of the trees going backwards?). Just make a drop zone or require a rethrow from the previous lie.

In PDGA play you always have the option of rethrowing from your previous lie for a 1 stroke penalty. Using that option would probably be better than the local rule most of the time anyway.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

IMHO, the term "Double Reverse Mando" is stupid and confusing...needs too much explanation. what's reverse about this?

It's also referred to as an outside mando, where you have to travel "outside" the designated area.

^works for me... simple and elegant.


Looks like a sufficiently guarded approach up the fairway. I see no reason to enforce such a mando on this hole other than "just 'cause we can."
If you can thread it through those trees from a distance, you've earned an easy look