drk_evns Backhand Form Thread

[NoseDownKing]

Practice standstills with your plant foot opened. That will force you to be more open and not reach as far. I'm sure doing this with momentum is really hard

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[drk_evns]

BW sure makes some wild claims. I don't know what dictionary says brace means to stop? It means to strengthen or support, you do have to brace yourself in order to pivot/change direction or deliver a blow or swing. The opposite of bracing is collapsing which many Ams do, I know I used to collapse with a passive front leg, and the idea of bracing was a lightbulb moment that turbo charged my rotation.

This dude is mind boggling...



Apparently he's fine with the word brace now.

And after saying "Inward Pull" about 8 million times he's now saying pulling is bad (to be clear, I agree with what he's saying in this video)

He's slowly figuring things out like everyone else does, it's just he preaches everything he thinks he knows as truth to his little cult. This is a perfect example of why he should not be looked to as some sort of form guru.

I agreed with almost all of this video. You can tell, however, he still has no idea on how to teach/describe the lower body.

"I am going to say something so controversial...." what a cringe-y narcissistic little **** he is.

 

[drk_evns]

I'm working on my own just trying to completely eliminate my excessive stagger.

@HyzerUniBomber - I'm really noticing the backwards ski turn feel when I stand more upright.

Another dead giveaway is where you plant foot toe points. When I stagger, it sort of turns slowly with a few stops. When I have straight stride, it turns all the way open towards the target as if it is pointing at the disc the entire time.

Also wonder what you guys think about this video:



Feels like Drew's advice is really terrible for Brodie's form.

I understand what Drew is trying to say in most of it, it's just really difficult to decipher if you already don't understand the concepts.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Since this video is 20 minutes, I can't really do a full break down - but it's what I'd expect in the first couple minutes. Drew talks super fast and doesn't seem to have a script, so it's all over the place.

I'd start by saying that I think universally, the down swing is taught as being completed on the front side. Saying that you want your hips and shoulders together is going to get you zero lag. There's nuance here: toe down, heel down - disc comes forward with respect to the body. If your hips start to open once you get to the heel down / can crushing spot, you very quickly tighten up the abdominal muscles and the downswing starts... and it's initiated by the hips turning.

Hopefully his video helps some people or gets them thinking about form. I personally know from (how many?) years of talking with people about this - that there's a never-ending question of "how should this feel" and explaining that is sometimes impossible. It's why we like drills where a motion might be exaggerated or slowed down.

That backward ski turn is still a great way to "feel" the firming of the front side. I was thinking about that on monday as I was skiing backwards with my kids.

 

[UhhNegative]

I was kind of impressed with the first 10 minutes in how much Drew knew and how little he said that was truly incorrect. My expectations were not high. The coaching maybe isn't as good, but to be fair it's very difficult especially when I'm sure they were doing all of those with one take and not practicing what they are going to say.

 

[UhhNegative]

I think it's right to tell Brodie to be more athletic on the balls of his feet, but when you watch his throw, he's not shifting weight off the rear leg until after his front foot is already down and he's doing a lot of his weight shifting by tipping the upper body too far back and then too far forward.

By here, it's all over.

 

[UhhNegative]

Compared to Drew who is already shifting from behind with his lower body:

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

^^ Just to keep apples to apples, Drew is further into the heel down motion. I agree on your thought, Brodie is reaching back and sloshing forward instead of staying vertical.

 

[drk_evns]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm on the same page.

What about the "add more stagger" comment at the beginning. I cringe every time I see it recommended just because it's so difficult to train out and it's what I'm going through right now.

I think what drew says does not necessarily match what he does. He has a pretty straight stride. I can't figure out why so many pros talk about it. Simon seems to be one of the only one with a truly large stagger. What am I missing?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Feel ain't real and to be clear, I don't think the amount of stagger is that important so long as you are shifting targetward. The problem starts when you shift off the line of your trajectory. It's very easy to have your shift start to follow your stagger to the left. The more stagger you have, the more your butt has to stick out to remain dragging along the wall in the wall drill.

If I'm doing the wall drill, I start with right foot directly in front of left foot and it strides parallel to the wall. That let's my hips stay back without feeling like I'm struggling. If I add another 6" of offset, it get's tricky to keep my hips back unless I'm throwing a hyzer.

 

[drk_evns]

Feel ain't real and to be clear, I don't think the amount of stagger is that important so long as you are shifting targetward. The problem starts when you shift off the line of your trajectory. It's very easy to have your shift start to follow your stagger to the left. The more stagger you have, the more your butt has to stick out to remain dragging along the wall in the wall drill.

If I'm doing the wall drill, I start with right foot directly in front of left foot and it strides parallel to the wall. That let's my hips stay back without feeling like I'm struggling. If I add another 6" of offset, it get's tricky to keep my hips back unless I'm throwing a hyzer.

When you talk about the ski turn feel, does the front foot feel like it's nearly turned backwards as it heads to the plant? I think it's because I'm so used to leaning forward and throwing it out in front of me a straight stride feels almost as if I'm planing BEHIND my other foot. Obviously I'm not, but I'm worried about letting it become turning backwards in the x-step.

I think it's just a case of changing muscle memory and small adjustments FEELING much more dramatic.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

When you talk about the ski turn feel, does the front foot feel like it's nearly turned backwards as it heads to the plant? I think it's because I'm so used to leaning forward and throwing it out in front of me a straight stride feels almost as if I'm planing BEHIND my other foot. Obviously I'm not, but I'm worried about letting it become turning backwards in the x-step.

I think it's just a case of changing muscle memory and small adjustments FEELING much more dramatic.

Yes, it can feel that way and it is probably easy to over-do it and end up too backwards, but I think of it like a good hershyzer drill. Your butt is coming in first, plant foot is leading with the heel like you're dragging the ski backwards.

 

[drk_evns]

Yes, it can feel that way and it is probably easy to over-do it and end up too backwards, but I think of it like a good hershyzer drill. Your butt is coming in first, plant foot is leading with the heel like you're dragging the ski backwards.

That Eagle gif pretty accurately describes how my legs are feeling. Thank you!

 

[sidewinder22]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm on the same page.

What about the "add more stagger" comment at the beginning. I cringe every time I see it recommended just because it's so difficult to train out and it's what I'm going through right now.

I think what drew says does not necessarily match what he does. He has a pretty straight stride. I can't figure out why so many pros talk about it. Simon seems to be one of the only one with a truly large stagger. What am I missing?

I think it was a little confusing/counter intuitive with what he was saying or how he said it. I don't have a problem with it, and he isn't wrong.

You do need to stagger some or end up in stagger to block the energy of the rear side into the front side to create rotation.

I think the problem most people have with too much stagger is like what HUB is saying, they aren't getting balanced on the front leg. It's also a symptom of trying to be like Simon or doing something without understanding it. They are shifting the whole body/head in the wrong way over to the stagger/humping the goat with the rear leg and collapsing into/behind the front leg. If you watch Simon, his head starts way over to the left in the x-step and he strides his front foot over so it's straight underneath his head/shoulders.

My upper body weighs too much to do that, gravity will pull me over before I can get my foot underneath me. Pretty sure that's why GG is so vertical in the x-step and then tilts going into the plant and lands in only slight stagger. Skinny people may have an easier time tilting over so much in the x-step, but I still don't think it's the most efficient way to move, look at the Jarvis brothers standing straight up in x-step.

 

[drk_evns]

I think it was a little confusing/counter intuitive with what he was saying or how he said it. I don't have a problem with it, and he isn't wrong.



You do need to stagger some or end up in stagger to block the energy of the rear side into the front side to create rotation.



I think the problem most people have with too much stagger is like what HUB is saying, they aren't getting balanced on the front leg. It's also a symptom of trying to be like Simon or doing something without understanding it. They are shifting the whole body/head in the wrong way over to the stagger/humping the goat with the rear leg and collapsing into/behind the front leg. If you watch Simon, his head starts way over to the left in the x-step and he strides his front foot over so it's straight underneath his head/shoulders.



My upper body weighs too much to do that, gravity will pull me over before I can get my foot underneath me. Pretty sure that's why GG is so vertical in the x-step and then tilts going into the plant and lands in only slight stagger. Skinny people may have an easier time tilting over so much in the x-step, but I still don't think it's the most efficient way to move, look at the Jarvis brothers standing straight up in x-step.

That makes total sense! I'm a very large human, I can see how it would be harder to stagger for a bigger person.

What I still don't understand is why Simon's stagger helps. I understand what you mean about him still shifting towards the target, but I don't understand what sticking that lead leg out further does.

I see how keeping it straight allows for a faster pivot. Not saying there isn't an upside to a stagger, I just don't understand it.

My guess would be that it allows for a longer swing by essentially forcing "griplock."

 

[sidewinder22]

The more you stagger, the more space you give yourself for the swing as the rear side gets more out of the way.

Thing is that stagger/swing space really happens from the rear foot, not the front foot and this is where people screw it up moving into the swing space instead of clearing away from it. Simon just strides his foot in a big circle so it looks really exaggerated and creates more internal torque in the body winding up the front leg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwy1HNMfhbk&t=2m35s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio&t=6m5s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZG5eW-1b-g&t=24s

 

[sidewinder22]

This is an interesting read on Hogan's diagonal stance.
http://biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com/2010/04/diagonal-stance.html

 

[drk_evns]

That Eagle gif pretty accurately describes how my legs are feeling. Thank you!

The more I watch it, the more I see the front half of his body turning all the way back and the rear side pushing everything forward laterally.

Compared to how my throw was feeling before, the "ski turn" feels like a much wider range of motion. Like a sprinkler with two stops that has gone from an 80-degree arc to a 180-degree arc. It makes sense that it would be much more powerful.

The more you stagger, the more space you give yourself for the swing as the rear side gets more out of the way.

Thing is that stagger/swing space really happens from the rear foot, not the front foot and this is where people screw it up moving into the swing space instead of clearing away from it. Simon just strides his foot in a big circle so it looks really exaggerated and creates more internal torque in the body winding up the front leg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwy1HNMfhbk&t=2m35s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio&t=6m5s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZG5eW-1b-g&t=24s

So when you get the rear side more out of the way, are you technically reaching back behind yourself in a good way? Does the swing extend back and then left behind you to get more turn out of the body?

OR

Does it just require your front side to get out of the way FASTER? This would make sense because someone like Simon could do that, but us bigger guys would have trouble moving out of the way fast or far enough.

 

[sidewinder22]

Not sure I'm following the question. Your front side will clear out of the if you are swinging forward balanced on front leg. Rear side will clear out of the way if your backswing is balanced on rear leg. The clearing speed is all relative to your leg pumping swing, if you clear faster than the swing, then there is a disconnect. If you stagger too much you won't be able to shift balanced on either leg and get stuck in the middle.

 

[drk_evns]

Played a round yesterday at my old home course and I'm in a great place. I'm to a point where all of my throws look good on camera and I was more accurate than I've ever been on the course.

I'm throwing consistent distance and can add a lot of power with a bigger run up now. Had a 425-450 flat to hyzer shot on a hole that felt like one of my best ever and it was effortless. Nearly aced the next hole after that one.

You know how you imagine your best shot on every hole of your home course, and think about how good you have the potential to be? It felt like I was living that round.

As a bonus, my putt has felt effortless lately. I cannot wait for tournaments to really start back up.