Excessive Time

[mark996]

I don't think the rule specifies the path one must take to "arrive at the lie", so if you don't know where the basket is, it makes sense to choose a path that allows a view of the basket before "arriving at the lie".

So you're saying someone could be aimlessly wondering around, walking 200-300ft beyond their lie...that could be misconstrued as just walking to their lie? I know some people stretch the rules as far as possible but even that one is a bit out there...
For example...824ft par 5, extreme u turn after a tree line that leads down to a "bowl", then goes back uphill and tunnels to the right for a shot at the basket. On the drive typically you want to land out in the open, and then for your second shot you're throwing in to the "bowl" and tunnel towards the basket. You don't see the basket until the last 150ft of the hole once you're up out of the bowl. First drive, lets say it's 400ft. That leaves 424ft to go, so you say it's ok to "go to your lie" 300ft out of the way? I don't think that's acceptable, especially considering the fact that you're likely in the fairway while other players are awaiting their turn to throw, you're holding up the entire card. If you wait until your lie is out to go walk the 300ft to look at the basket...I honestly have no idea how you could argue that that's not abusing the time given.

That's an extreme example, sure. And I understand if you're walking a few feet ahead to get a look, no problem at all with that, but if you're heading up the fairway and delaying others during the process, that's a problem.

 

[Steve West]

A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:
...
The player has had a reasonable amount of time to arrive at the disc

Wandering around without getting to your disc doesn't buy you extra time.

 

[teemkey]

Frequently, when granting extra time is reasonable, the first step in arriving at the lie is finding the disc ...

 

[araytx]

One thing people seem to misunderstand is the "re-set". You have 30 seconds from the time "blah blah blah" and the playing area is free of distractions. Assuming all the blah blah blah conditions are met, and you are at your lie going through the pre-throw routine with the 30 seconds counting, when a real distraction, like a biker, a walker, or car going by... (legit).

For those who routinely push the time limit, I don't buy that the 30-second count "re-sets" once this distraction clears. If the rest of us on the card have been reasonable with you and you're now 15 seconds into your putting or throwing routine when the distraction legitimately shows up, once it re-clears you really only have 15 more seconds remaining. You can't possibly think that you get another 30 seconds after every distraction.

 

[filobedo]

Hello everyone,

Before I start, if there is a thread on this topic, please direct me there!

BUT - when does the count officially begin for excessive time - upshots and putts? For example, you have a difficult lie and it takes a while to figure out what shot you want to do. When does that 30 second time limit start?

Play behind the Open players in a tournament and many rarely comply with the 30 second rule. Cam Todd is the only Pro or Am I can think of immediately who alway plays faster than probably anyone in the sport.

 

[araytx]

Play behind the Open players in a tournament and many rarely comply with the 30 second rule. Cam Todd is the only Pro or Am I can think of immediately who alway plays faster than probably anyone in the sport.

I agree with Cam playing fast, but I disagree that a lot of players abuse the rule. Some do, and some just use the full 30.

I've been accused of that myself (particularly while putting), people just don't know how long 30 seconds actually is. I had a caddy honestly time me for an entire round and he wrote down the legit times for my putting routine for the round. True I took a "long time" -- I averaged 26 seconds for all the holes I actually had to putt (not drop-ins) and only once, at 32 seconds, did I go over. I had been told about that earlier when I started playing, and I've certainly sped up my routine, but it's still 20 - 25 seconds most of the time.

 

[krupicka]

One thing people seem to misunderstand is the "re-set". You have 30 seconds from the time "blah blah blah" and the playing area is free of distractions. Assuming all the blah blah blah conditions are met, and you are at your lie going through the pre-throw routine with the 30 seconds counting, when a real distraction, like a biker, a walker, or car going by... (legit).

For those who routinely push the time limit, I don't buy that the 30-second count "re-sets" once this distraction clears. If the rest of us on the card have been reasonable with you and you're now 15 seconds into your putting or throwing routine when the distraction legitimately shows up, once it re-clears you really only have 15 more seconds remaining. You can't possibly think that you get another 30 seconds after every distraction.

So if there is a distraction at the 28 second mark. The player only has 2 seconds after the distraction clears? Really?

 

[araytx]

So if there is a distraction at the 28 second mark. The player only has 2 seconds after the distraction clears? Really?

How much time would you advocate for? He's already had 28 distraction-free seconds legitimately to throw. A player, who I said is routinely pressing the limit, passes on throwing 15 - 20 times for 28 seconds, then calls a distraction. Even if legit, how much time do you think he should have to throw now, really? If you say another 30 I have another scenario to discuss. And 804.01, and what is says.

 

[krupicka]

It says you have 30 seconds after the area is free of distractions. If there is a distraction, you have 30 seconds after that. Pretty simple.

 

[sisyphus]

The frustration comes when folks are standing on the tee behind you, and everything is distracting the one slow guy. Had a cardmate literally take over three minutes to throw a 40' putt...and miss. I'm not all that talented, but I took about 5 seconds to follow him and made my 30 footer. I ignored the SUV coming up the drive on my left. It CAN be done.

 

[JC17393]

It says you have 30 seconds after the area is free of distractions. If there is a distraction, you have 30 seconds after that. Pretty simple.

Disagree. There's nothing in the rule that says the clock stops or resets for any reason once it has started. It defines when the clock starts. Period.

That's not to say that common sense doesn't kick in when a safety issue arises after the clock starts and before the player throws, and the player is given a few extra seconds to wait or reset himself. But a bird chirping or a car passing (assuming it's not in range of the throw) or someone sneezing at the 20 second mark doesn't give the player a new clock to work with.

The intent of the excessive time rule is to keep things moving at a reasonable pace. Resetting the 30 seconds with any distraction renders the rule useless in its intention.

 

[JoakimBL]

Disagree. There's nothing in the rule that says the clock stops or resets for any reason once it has started. It defines when the clock starts. Period.

Not this again. Can some pre rube the old tread?

By that same argument, there is nothing in the rules that say the clock pauses and then restarts. It isn't reasonable to argue that your 30 seconds is made up of several small periods of time. You are perfectly allowed to have a preshot rutine of 29 seconds, and it is unreasonable for a player to not be allowed his full 30 seconds, after a legitimate distraction. You are allowed 30 seconds AFTER the area is clear of distraction. Not a total of 30 seconds of distraction free playing area. No reasonable person would legitimately argue anything else. Even though I normally consider your post highly reasonable, this is just a ridicoulus interpretation, and without a NBA style shot clock, totally unenforceable.

 

[sidewinder22]

It says you have 30 seconds after the area is free of distractions. If there is a distraction, you have 30 seconds after that. Pretty simple.

Exactly.

 

[araytx]

It says you have 30 seconds after the area is free of distractions. If there is a distraction, you have 30 seconds after that. Pretty simple.

Not this again. Can some pre rube the old tread?

By that same argument, there is nothing in the rules that say the clock pauses and then restarts. It isn't reasonable to argue that your 30 seconds is made up of several small periods of time. You are perfectly allowed to have a preshot rutine of 29 seconds, and it is unreasonable for a player to not be allowed his full 30 seconds, after a legitimate distraction. You are allowed 30 seconds AFTER the area is clear of distraction. Not a total of 30 seconds of distraction free playing area. No reasonable person would legitimately argue anything else. Even though I normally consider your post highly reasonable, this is just a ridicoulus interpretation, and without a NBA style shot clock, totally unenforceable.

Back to defining the word "AFTER". I think I know what it means.

It says 30 seconds after the area is free of distractions. Once it's free of distractions then there's 30 seconds. If there is somehow another distraction, you wait until it's now free again. Once that one is clear it's still after it was FIRST clear of distractions -- PRETTY SIMPLE. If there is a second, third, umpteenth distraction, are you now saying that those (the second, third, umpteenth) didn't occur after the first one???

You guys are really saying that if I claim distraction, I can take an infinite amount of time by resetting the clock every time? Really?

 

[JC17393]

Not this again. Can some pre rube the old tread?

By that same argument, there is nothing in the rules that say the clock pauses and then restarts. It isn't reasonable to argue that your 30 seconds is made up of several small periods of time. You are perfectly allowed to have a preshot rutine of 29 seconds, and it is unreasonable for a player to not be allowed his full 30 seconds, after a legitimate distraction. You are allowed 30 seconds AFTER the area is clear of distraction. Not a total of 30 seconds of distraction free playing area. No reasonable person would legitimately argue anything else. Even though I normally consider your post highly reasonable, this is just a ridicoulus interpretation, and without a NBA style shot clock, totally unenforceable.

Yes you are allowed 30 seconds after the area is clear of distraction. No, you are not assured a total of 30 seconds of distraction free playing area. You get 30 seconds, period. Not 30 seconds of no distractions. Not a series of 30 second clocks reset at every distraction. 30 seconds to throw. The playing area is clear, the clock starts and you have to throw before 30 seconds expires, with due consideration given to safety issues but not for a gust of wind or a chain ringing six holes away or a leaf rustling or a player coughing.

I'm not advocating strict adherence to a shot clock style timer or anything, common sense should prevail. But common sense doesn't include letting the player stand around until there are perfect conditions by arguing that he's "distracted" by things that don't present a safety or injury concern.

A line has to be drawn somewhere. I choose to draw it at the idea that one can use any distraction to render the rule meaningless.

 

[araytx]

Yes you are allowed 30 seconds after the area is clear of distraction. No, you are not assured a total of 30 seconds of distraction free playing area. You get 30 seconds, period. Not 30 seconds of no distractions. Not a series of 30 second clocks reset at every distraction. 30 seconds to throw. The playing area is clear, the clock starts and you have to throw before 30 seconds expires, with due consideration given to safety issues but not for a gust of wind or a chain ringing six holes away or a leaf rustling or a player coughing.

I'm not advocating strict adherence to a shot clock style timer or anything, common sense should prevail. But common sense doesn't include letting the player stand around until there are perfect conditions by arguing that he's "distracted" by things that don't present a safety or injury concern.

A line has to be drawn somewhere. I choose to draw it at the idea that one can use any distraction to render the rule meaningless.

exactly the way I interpret it, too.

Not trying to be that guy, as I was speaking about the player who always pushes the time limit, but it seems very unreasonable and lacking common sense to let him reset the 30 seconds any time he feels distracted. Plus that's what the letter of rule says.

 

[JoakimBL]

Who says a leaf blowing is a legitimate distraction? Mother nature is part of the course, and not distractions. chains ratling on other holes is also part of the game. A car driving by, may og may not be, depending on the specifics. If it honks just as you are about to throw, I would count that as a legitimate distraction, if it's just driving by behind the tee, it obviously isn't.

Once that one is clear it's still after it was FIRST clear of distractions

but that "FIRST" isn't in the rules is it? (Dont look it up, it isn't) if a legit distraction occurs while the player is getting ready to throw, the playing are wasn't free and clear of distractions to begin with, so the 30 seconds never really started.
I can accept that there isn't a black and white answer to this debate in the rules, but as there isn't any direct language to support your interpretation of the rule in favour of mine, you really cannot dismiss mine as a legitimate interpretation. In that situation the burden of proof must be on on those arguing the stricter and more complex interpretation.

 

[krupicka]

Once that one is clear it's still after it was FIRST clear of distractions -- PRETTY SIMPLE. If there is a second, third, umpteenth distraction, are you now saying that those (the second, third, umpteenth) didn't occur after the first one????

I don't see the word FIRST in the rules... Did I miss it?

If that was the intention, I would expect it to be there.

 

[JC17393]

I don't see the word FIRST in the rules... Did I miss it?

If that was the intention, I would expect it to be there.

Same can be said of the notion that one gets multiple starts/restarts of the clock once it is begun because new distractions crop up. If that was the intention, I would expect it to be there.

Who says a leaf blowing is a legitimate distraction? Mother nature is part of the course, and not distractions. chains ratling on other holes is also part of the game. A car driving by, may og may not be, depending on the specifics. If it honks just as you are about to throw, I would count that as a legitimate distraction, if it's just driving by behind the tee, it obviously isn't.

The thing is, without a formal definition of what qualifies and what doesn't qualify as a "legitimate" distraction, how can one argue against whatever someone claims as a distraction? I've played with people who have backed off throws due to the "distraction" of a car passing behind them or someone banging chains on a putt two holes away or someone walking across their line of site 500 feet behind the target. Some people have weak resolve when it comes to ignoring "distractions". If left up to individual interpretation and definition, there really is no right and wrong.

I'd rather interpret the rule more literally when it comes to that and not allow for any random "distractions", save for ones that involve safety of the thrower or others (common sense), to stop the clock once it is begun.

 

[Steve West]

Same can be said of the notion that one gets multiple starts/restarts of the clock once it is begun because new distractions crop up. If that was the intention, I would expect it to be there.

What would it say if that was the intent?