Excessive time called at DGPT finals

[Lefty723]

I have an idea...

We get reasonable time to determine our lie, you know within 10 seconds of being anywhere near it whether you'll take it or Re-Tee.

You have to have a mini to play sanctioned events, for ob lie marking purposes. So, mandatory use of a mini. Infront, or behind the disc seeing as even i will leave the thrown disc if it gives me an better look.

The moment someone's mini gets placed, start the 30 second timer. There's something right there that the PDGA could encorporate into their new scoring programming. First time over 30 seconds is a warning, second time there's an automatic penalty added to the score.

 

[Steve West]

I have an idea...

We get reasonable time to determine our lie, you know within 10 seconds of being anywhere near it whether you'll take it or Re-Tee.

You have to have a mini to play sanctioned events, for ob lie marking purposes. So, mandatory use of a mini. Infront, or behind the disc seeing as even i will leave the thrown disc if it gives me an better look.

The moment someone's mini gets placed, start the 30 second timer. There's something right there that the PDGA could encorporate into their new scoring programming. First time over 30 seconds is a warning, second time there's an automatic penalty added to the score.

Ten seconds may not be enough to determine the lie for a disc in an area where the group needs to read the caddy book to know how to play it. Or for a disc that can't be located right away even when the thrower is near it.

So how about we get a reasonable time to determine the lie and get to it, then start the 30 second clock?

Whether someone uses a mini or not, and no matter how long they hold the mini in their hand to prevent the clock from starting.

 

[rhatton1]

The problem with the 30 second rule being a rule is that it either has to be invoked in all instances or not at all.

I would honestly prefer as the rule reads now for it never to be invoked. I would always prefer to see a card mate get set before making a shot rather than rushing it (often likely to lead to more shots and overall slower play, hit the right shot first time in one minute and we can miss the 3 bad ones that took 1 minute 30 plus walking to lies)

I would always prefer to watch a player on screen be set before throwing not rushing it. The vast majority of players play their shots within a given time, it's a time that allowed the RC to come up with 30 seconds. Yes there are outliers but do they create these huge issues that means we need to rush a player on the one and only time they find themselves in a difficult lie and risk pushing those 30 seconds? (Paul McBeth in the rough example given above)

I would prefer Paul to have a chance to take his time over that shot because it's different and he's played every other shot in the round easily within a reasonable amount of time.

When a set time is given, context is lost. The more we rule for time infringements the more chances the rules get to be broken regularly and the harder it gets to then enforce them fairly where required.

What am I saying? I'm not entirely sure? Do we need something that stops a player consistently taking 1 - 2 minutes over each shot to deal with those outlier players that do? Yes probably. Should that rule be worded in a way that means we have to penalise the players that play within reasonable timescales for the vast majority of the time? IMO no. What is the best wording? Again, I'm not sure but it needs more subjectivity not less.

In an ideal world I would like an overall round time card which allows a player a reasonable amount of time per shot taken overall but gives them the time required to settle themselves for the World Champs winning putt, or the unexpected scramble shot where there are multiple routes and multiple options and it should take them a bit more time to make a decision and execute the best shot in the situation . This surely is what we and promoters and film crews want to see? We're not a speed sport, we're a beat the course sport.

As an example. I'm pretty sure this shot was illegal - At my count it was 38ish seconds. Let's strip him of the title....

When the exact time is ruled for there is no subjectivity, you can't just enforce when you like or when you feel annoyed enough "well this time I'm going to call them on it"

It's an incredibly difficult one to rule for but I am very dubious of going down a more limit setting path. Under 801.02 B we are going to create a situation where we're all consistently breaking the rules. (Yes I am aware there is the word "clearly" in there" but still)






On the other hand, if anyone breaks out a Bushnell on my card, screw rules consistency, I am getting the stopwatch out immediately.....

 

[dmoore1998]

I have an idea...

We get reasonable time to determine our lie, you know within 10 seconds of being anywhere near it whether you'll take it or Re-Tee.

You have to have a mini to play sanctioned events, for ob lie marking purposes. So, mandatory use of a mini. Infront, or behind the disc seeing as even i will leave the thrown disc if it gives me an better look.

The moment someone's mini gets placed, start the 30 second timer. There's something right there that the PDGA could encorporate into their new scoring programming. First time over 30 seconds is a warning, second time there's an automatic penalty added to the score.

Anything which has a hard time limit, and is being enforced by players, is never going to work. Players already barely enforce things like foot faults and other penalties, they're not going to automatically start breaking out stopwatches. I can't think of another sport like this ("like this" meaning the sport, not the time limit...individual sport where there's no direct influence on competitors) where a hard time limit exists on an activity that happens over and over again...because they typically exist to prevent stalling of some sort...which isn't an issue here.

I know people seem to hate ball golf here, but they've pretty much already figured out how to address this issue. I'm not sure disc golf needs to reinvent the wheel here with a terrible solution just to say they're different.

 

[robdeforge]

As an example. I'm pretty sure this shot was illegal - At my count it was 38ish seconds. Let's strip him of the title....

not quite.

A player who takes excessive time receives a warning for the first violation.

 

[rhatton1]

not quite.

I almost added that addendum but thought for purposes of a sarcastic example I could get away with not

 

[robdeforge]

I almost added that addendum but thought for purposes of a sarcastic example I could get away with not

as a very sarcastic person myself, I can be terrible at sensing it in person and even WORSE online! :doh:

 

[Ahildy13]

I have an idea...

We get reasonable time to determine our lie, you know within 10 seconds of being anywhere near it whether you'll take it or Re-Tee.

You have to have a mini to play sanctioned events, for ob lie marking purposes. So, mandatory use of a mini. Infront, or behind the disc seeing as even i will leave the thrown disc if it gives me an better look.

The moment someone's mini gets placed, start the 30 second timer. There's something right there that the PDGA could encorporate into their new scoring programming. First time over 30 seconds is a warning, second time there's an automatic penalty added to the score.

Let's make it even easier, and mandate mini's that are themselves timers.
Place it on the ground and you get a big ticking countdown clock so everyone knows.

I don't really want to do this, but even in the rec level tournaments I have been playing in I cannot believe how long some people take to select a disc or choose their shot.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Some of us have been wondering what happened ever to Casey.

Couldn't help but think of early Casey posts after reading a few of Jab's.

Could Jab be some sort of bot?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Guess I gotta admit...
His English is better than my pick a language. :|

 

[chevis]

i also wonder if we will see casey around here again. he did get somewhat better at making sense.
maybe his uncle banned him after he took his upshot, the south dakota wind really wreaks havoc when he does back in 2000 with a xl thrown too high and a dragon for downwind over the fence that was yellow maybe goldenrod before they made the destroyer

as for jab, i think english isn't their 1st language...
i guess it could be an advanced bot skimming keywords from the thread & putting them together in an almost coherent way

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Re: Jabtwin

 

[TurnedOver]

I miss Jabtwin. I was looking forward to his next post.

 

[philstine]

Where does it say a player cannot make up their mind about whether they will mark, re-throw, or take relief until after your (a)(b)(c)(d)?

There is nothing--save, possibly, for the courtesy stipulation that a player should not advance beyond the away player--that prohibits[/] a player from making up his or her mind before (a)(b)(c)(d) have occurred, nor is such a prohibition implied distinguishing between the lie established by the thrown disc and the determination of the lie, but there is nothing that requires a player to do so; and, furthermore, nothing that prohibits a player, upon arriving at the thrown disc or the chosen lie, from reconsidering and changing his or her decision.

 

[philstine]

I'm FAR from a rule guru, please don't take this as a jab or trolling. Honest question.

If what you just stated is the case, can't I "debate" relief or abandonment but choose not to and play my lie as is?

Of course you can: that's inherent in the grant of the choice between playing from the lie established by the thrown disc or the lie marked by the mini marker.

Specifically, How long am I allowed to "debate" what I want to do before my lie is determined?

In the absence of a specified time limit, per 802.03.A.2, you have a "reasonable amount of time." In practical terms, means you have as much time as your card mates and/or tournament officials are willing to grant you before calling an excessive time violation.

 

[txmxer]

Almost all sports rules involve judgement. What's a strike?

For DG, we see people get to their lie, decide what they are doing and then sit and spin on actually completing a throw. Yes it is subjective. How could the 30 second rule NOT be subjective? About the only real measure would be for the player to choose to start the clock. There are caveats to any other scenario unless we want to introduce a true shot click. Last player throws? Clock starts.

 

[Jimb]

There are caveats to any other scenario unless we want to introduce a true shot click. Last player throws? Clock starts.

Would be interesting to see the big arms have to run an extra 100' or more to get to their discs on the ball golf courses.

 

[dmoore1998]

Almost all sports rules involve judgement. What's a strike?

For DG, we see people get to their lie, decide what they are doing and then sit and spin on actually completing a throw. Yes it is subjective. How could the 30 second rule NOT be subjective? About the only real measure would be for the player to choose to start the clock. There are caveats to any other scenario unless we want to introduce a true shot click. Last player throws? Clock starts.

Almost no sports allow their certified rules officials, in this case players in major tournaments, to choose to blatantly ignore the rules and enforce what they feel like when they feel like it without consequences to their status as officials.

Also almost no sports allow competitors in major events to be the actual officials.

On the one hand there's some subjectivity to it...on the other there are lots of cases where it's very clear to everyone involved that the player has marked their lie and is going to throw, and still takes much longer than 30 seconds. Things like giving people reasonable time to determine their lie may someday be an issue...today the issue is that the rule isn't being enforced consistently even in situations where the question of determining their lie is not at issue.

 

[dmoore1998]

Would be interesting to see the big arms have to run an extra 100' or more to get to their discs on the ball golf courses.

The big arms would have it good...they might have to run an extra 100', think of the poor weak arm who has to take off like a sprinter the moment the last player throws from the tee!

 

[robdeforge]

Also almost no sports allow competitors in major events to be the actual officials.

this is an interesting point. other than golf, are there any major professional sports that allow the players themselves to make the calls? off the top of my head there's golf, and if we go a few steps down maybe you could count ultimate frisbee, although both sports have rules officials/observers that actually do stuff