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Excessive time called at DGPT finals
- Thread starter araytx
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dmoore1998
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Professionals should behave professionally (but they don't, Malice at the Palace?), but the biggest issue I see is that they aren't behaving professionally as referees/rules enforcers. Professional referees don't make calls sometimes and other calls not at all, because they're looking to gain an advantage for their own team (because they aren't on a team, they are "uninterested rules enforcers").
I can probably count all-out brawls on both hands (also ignoring the 1 time someone waived a gun around a crowded gym because they'd just gotten a beatdown after starting one of those brawls) but I've seen WAY too-many-to-count "accidental" elbows flailing around, hard fouls, etc...clearly intended to express displeasure at calls. The benefit to pickup basketball games though is...all the participants of the contest are right there, they can all chime in on every call...and they effectively decide what the rules of "that game" are with their input. That said, I have spent a lot of time in pickup games where the players were VERY good, collegiate, pro...and probably have more of their self-worth tied to winning than a random game at the local gym (which I've also played in a lot, and the more casual the player, the less things seem to escalate because being called for a foul doesn't feel like an affront to their entire worth in life). Which is to say, I kind of expect a casual pick-up game (or casual contest of anything) to run a lot more smoothly and respectfully than a similar contest with more talented individuals.
That's not how disc golf tournaments are though, which is why selective enforcement is an even bigger problem, because then not everyone ends up playing with the same rules being enforced.
And in terms of just the simple act of "respecting the call"...if you're played thousands of pickup games, you've probably heard thousands of people not respecting someone's call in one way or another. Heck people don't respect an actual referee's calls.
dmoore1998
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To put a cap on the basketball analogy...walk into a random gym, play a pickup game, and try to call a charge on someone when they make game-point. It's a rule, but nobody calls it. If you try to call it at the time it's important and really benefits you, you'd probably get laughed out of the gym. That's the time rule in disc golf. It's a rule, that pretty much nobody calls, and gets laughed at when you do because it benefits the person calling it.
That's the reason you can't/shouldn't have "professional" sports, with amateur officials calling their own violations.
That's the reason you can't/shouldn't have "professional" sports, with amateur officials calling their own violations.
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
Rules are rules. Whether we like them or not....they are part of the sport. One thing about the rules that I just do not understand, is a player calling a violation on themselves. I called a foot fault on myself and was told I can't do that...it has to be called by another player and seconded. I thought that was stupid. As long as the 'self call' didn't benefit me, why can't I call a violation on myself and have it stick? (My foot bumped and moved my marker before I released...my disc ended up parked under the basket).
As for other players not calling violations....heck, other players want to accept gimme's (okay, maybe not in pro tournaments). The first tournament I was in, I missed the basket....my lie was at the basket's edge, all I had to do was drop the putter in the tray. Something distracted me, I turned my head, my shoulders followed and so did the disc. My cardmates said "Did you really miss that?" I said yeah, I didn't concentrate, turned, and missed the basket. They - all three of them -said "We'll give it to you". I said "thank you, but no....I didn't pay attention....I missed and it cost me a stroke".
As for other players not calling violations....heck, other players want to accept gimme's (okay, maybe not in pro tournaments). The first tournament I was in, I missed the basket....my lie was at the basket's edge, all I had to do was drop the putter in the tray. Something distracted me, I turned my head, my shoulders followed and so did the disc. My cardmates said "Did you really miss that?" I said yeah, I didn't concentrate, turned, and missed the basket. They - all three of them -said "We'll give it to you". I said "thank you, but no....I didn't pay attention....I missed and it cost me a stroke".
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
To clarify....I'm not a saint. I've played ball golf since 1985 and am used to being able to call violations on myself when they happen and accepting that I make mistakes which cause me extra strokes. I try to apply that to disc golf...which is why I have a difficult time understanding why I can't call a violation on myself and take the penalty.
jenb
* Ace Member *
Some people see complexity where there isn't any.
1) Locate and arrive at your disc.
2) Locate the basket.
Pro Tip: Chances are it hasn't moved since your tee shot.
3) Lie has been determined.
You now have 30 sec to throw.
You can do pretty much anything else you deem helpful during that 30 sec (e.g. assess distance, wind, hazards, OB and mandos, disc selection, FH vs. BH, wipe a disc, take a drink, eat a snack...)
All that is occurring while your 30 sec clock is ticking. How you use that 30 seconds is up to you. But the disc has to be in the air when the clock hits 31.
It's not rocket surgery.
2.5) optionally mark the lie
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There was a time when there was that one rule that a player could not call on themself. (Foot fault when the remedy was re-throw with a warning.) This was widely misinterpreted as preventing a player from calling anything on themselves. (How convenient!)
That's been fixed since 2018. All players can call violations on themselves. Note, if there is a penalty throw involved, it still needs to be seconded by another player.
Or, another player can make a call on you, and you can second it to enforce the penalty throw.
If you think 30 seconds is an actual shot clock, like in basketball, or the play clock in football…
It's not. It's not remotely close. And the rules aren't written as if it is.
All of this talk about the rule not being applied, yet no one is suggesting what would make this a real throw clock. A referee that started a clock, with a countdown timer. I can just imagine the big countdown clocks behind the basket, or down the fairway, with a horn sounding when the clock ran out. Is that what you think should happen? Because that would be the only fair way to apply a literal, no exceptions, "30 seconds to play" rule.
Disc golf is not intended to be, and is not now, a game where time pressure plays a key role in executing a shot. The 30 second rule is a pace of play rule. And not a very good one.
It's not. It's not remotely close. And the rules aren't written as if it is.
All of this talk about the rule not being applied, yet no one is suggesting what would make this a real throw clock. A referee that started a clock, with a countdown timer. I can just imagine the big countdown clocks behind the basket, or down the fairway, with a horn sounding when the clock ran out. Is that what you think should happen? Because that would be the only fair way to apply a literal, no exceptions, "30 seconds to play" rule.
Disc golf is not intended to be, and is not now, a game where time pressure plays a key role in executing a shot. The 30 second rule is a pace of play rule. And not a very good one.
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As you say, it is about pace of play, not about creating a time constraint or additional pressure.
I doubt anyone says squat when a player finds themselves in a particularly odd of difficult situation, and needs a little longer to figure out how they want to play their lie.
But when the same player(s) routinely take an excessive amount of time to attempt routine shots, that's when things can back up. You can't expect people to change their behavior until they're called on it, and called on it consistently.
Personally, I think the game loses some integrity when cardmates fail to call players on violations because, "their focused on their own game," and/or don't want to create a negative vibe on the card.
Violations can be called professionally and politely. If a player gets bent outta shape, that's their problem, not yours
I doubt anyone says squat when a player finds themselves in a particularly odd of difficult situation, and needs a little longer to figure out how they want to play their lie.
But when the same player(s) routinely take an excessive amount of time to attempt routine shots, that's when things can back up. You can't expect people to change their behavior until they're called on it, and called on it consistently.
Personally, I think the game loses some integrity when cardmates fail to call players on violations because, "their focused on their own game," and/or don't want to create a negative vibe on the card.
Violations can be called professionally and politely. If a player gets bent outta shape, that's their problem, not yours
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hawgdriver
Eagle Member
Spot on.
In a perfect world, each player is objectively measured on pace of play, and violations are automatic, like balls and strikes could be.
High-leverage and difficult shots should be allowed more than 30. So give each player a 60s or 120s time bank for the whole round they can eat into. Maybe 60s with bonus for brisk/clean play.
Perfect world though...not practical yet.
Lets say a very difficult throw comes up. The player knows it's going to take more than 30 seconds.
He takes the warning. Can he then take as long as he wants? 5 minutes/10 minutes?
If we are headed towards a strict 30 sec. rule we should have a "courtesy time allowance" requested by the player and agreed upon by two other players.
He takes the warning. Can he then take as long as he wants? 5 minutes/10 minutes?
If we are headed towards a strict 30 sec. rule we should have a "courtesy time allowance" requested by the player and agreed upon by two other players.
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At PDGA-sanctioned events, players are also subject to the Competition Manual. Section 3.02 deals with pace of play.
dmoore1998
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An improvement over the players calling (or more often, not calling) a shot clock on each other would simply be the PGA version where an official is in charge of keeping groups playing at a decent pace. They warn slower groups, then potentially penalize them. You can take a long time on your hard shots...as long as you're keeping a decent pace with every other group on the course.
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10 seconds, with someone screaming the countdown in your face. No pressure
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
Thank you for that information.....this happened last year and I thought my reading of the rules was correct, but everyone on my card said I couldn't call a violation against myself - which really bothered me as it (calling the violation on myself) would have meant a penalty stroke, so there's no way it would have benefited me to call the violation.
How bout PDGA approved mini marker timers. As soon as the mini is placed the 30 sec. timer embeded inside is automatically activated. At 25 seconds a 5 count beep starts and at 30 seconds a long buzz starts.
If not using a mini marker it still must be placed on the ground next to your disc.
If not using a mini marker it still must be placed on the ground next to your disc.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
jakebake91
* Ace Member *
or these...
Not what we meant when we said the sport is exploding......
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
They make paintball landmines....just think, go over your time and get splattered with paint. Kind of like a Scarlet Letter.
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Nikko would just wear tie-dyes to hide the evidence.
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