First form check!

[Brychanus]

Alright guys.

You look really stiff and controlled. Need to loosen up and let go.

Pump or address forward without rotation. Then backswing can rotate as swing pulls it and body gets out of way of backswing. Your body is blocking your backswing from swinging further back and your elbow bends, instead of whole arm/shoulder unit continuing back.

It just looks like you're manipulating the hammer swings instead of it happening more naturally.

I think I'm more worried about looking like SW22/"winning" the drill than swinging. That's a psychological problem: get over it. The physical problem is that the hammer and disc are light enough that they still let my meat pile of a body cheat myself every ****ing time. ****, time to get rowdy.

Dropped into plant from doorframe in a few stances until I ripped it off. Then tried 15lb weight in a narrow stance and stopped worrying about my balance so much:




Standstills then came out dramatically tighter & whippier effortlessly. Drive leg feels like it's finally doing the same work it does against a door frame helping get huge leverage into the abrupt shift. Looks like I'm for once not ending by cheating my weight too far back and carrying thru forward. 3rd one looked the best to me as my balance improved.

 

[sidewinder22]

You are tipping over in door frame drill. Your rear foot is too far back and need to walk your rear foot targetward about a foot or so(my lead elbow is right over rear foot), so the upper body gets pulled back as the hips/butt/pelvis lead. Front foot should be relatively weightless unless you let go and drop 1-2".

 

[Flashblastx]

This is good!

Well depending on how you look at good but I think I see a lot of things with the door frame drill that are probably issues happening in your throw.

I think once you can transfer the door frame drill into your throw you will be quite pleased with the results but first you have to perfect the door frame drill. I recommend playing with it for quite a while and then working into an x-step (part 3).

So first thing I notice, you seem to be tilting your weight over/falling and this is why you fall forward after swinging. Shifting from the front. Your butt should be leading somewhat towards your camera to get the most leverage.

Your shoulders are not getting rotated back really at all (may be camera angle but I doubt it). You have to be relaxed enough that the door frame pulls your lead shoulder back while your butt leads. It should feel like your butt is pulling the door frame and that your arm is just attached, you pull the frame by dropping your weight towards the camera. You don't drop you just lean over towards target.

Your feet might be a little close to the wall. Your rear foot is too close to the door frame (in regards to target, move more towards target away from door frame) and your lead foot is too far from the rear foot (overcompensating for rear foot possibly)

It should feel like your rear heel won't even touch the ground cause your arm is holding on and you can bounce back and forth easily. When your heel comes down for real boom it happens and you throw you don't have to try hard since your weight from leading with your butt and that is powering the throw.

I really suggest trying many different positions around the door frame. Move your feet around, move your hand around height wise, move close to the wall, move away from the wall, put your feet closer or farther from target, widen your stance shorten your stance. Externally rotate feet, internally rotate feet. Try everything and mix it up.

Focus on how it feels. Not how it looks. Take what is good dump what feels bad.

Find where you have leverage. My suggestions should help but when you feel leverage move around some more and judge where it is you have the most leverage!! That's exactly your throwing position.

Then and only then start doing the same things with an x-step.

Also film door frame drill from two angles 90 degrees from each other and watch SW's videos again and pay attention to his feet and where he puts his body to obtain leverage.

So wordy sorry.

 

[Flashblastx]

Wish I was good with pictures. SW summed up what took me a million words hahah

 

[Brychanus]

Wish I was good with pictures. SW summed up what took me a million words hahah

I really appreciate it - the picture sums up a deep issue in my tilt/bend/shift/drive leg battle that was there all along and your advice is sound. Playing a bit then stress testing my standstill again. Don't want to get myself all mixed up again...

 

[Flashblastx]

I really appreciate it - the picture sums up a deep issue in my tilt/bend/shift/drive leg battle that was there all along and your advice is sound. Playing a bit then stress testing my standstill again. Don't want to get myself all mixed up again...

I would honestly just play around with the door frame and realize that motion is the throw. You just x-step or standstill around the door frame. More helpful to just do that until you feel what it should feel like to shift and lead with your butt while the door frame turns you back from relaxation. If you can do that all the tiny details don't really matter in my opinion, it's one movement.

When I broke it down to try and fix one issue at a time all I ended up with was trying to make the positions happen and ended up with all sorts of crazy stuff. It worked and I could throw far but I truly didn't have any leverage on the disc/door frame the entire time.

Throwing a disc is fun but unfortunately doesn't help and you make all sorts of compensations, I did too.

But once you realize that the disc is the door frame you just mimic your movement around the door frame instead of mimicking your throwing motion on the door frame.

Other activities that might help with the shift from behind that I have noticed…

Open the dishwasher with only your arm, now do it again but try to sit down behind you before you pull it should get ripped open.

Pull a person on the ground haha honestly think about it, you would dig in to the ground and sit back leading with your butt and then pull them/heave them and then stop reset and do it again.

Pull a heavy object on wheels, if you lead with your butt your arm does nothing but guide the object because the force has already been applied with your body weight. If you try to pull with your arm it will barely move.

That's how it feels to me, my weight is pulling the door frame, my arm is a vessel that's holding on and guiding the door frame to where I want it to go (the target).

 

[Brychanus]

This is good!

Well depending on how you look at good but I think I see a lot of things with the door frame drill that are probably issues happening in your throw.

You are tipping over in door frame drill. Your rear foot is too far back and need to walk your rear foot targetward about a foot or so(my lead elbow is right over rear foot), so the upper body gets pulled back as the hips/butt/pelvis lead. Front foot should be relatively weightless unless you let go and drop 1-2".

Sorry to put your kind soul through this one so far into the process man!

I fussed around with this for quite some time. After a while I ended up with a stance and follow through like this. I just let the weight shift cue the swing to unwind. I'll keep playing with this if it seems like it's helping.




Dunno if these swings look any better. Definitely feels a little more gelled and compact on the rear side but I know better than to just chase a feeling by now.

 

[sidewinder22]

Still tipping over, not really getting your mAss into it.

 

[Brychanus]

I'm pretty frustrated with myself. Tried again.

doorframe


standstill


buncha freewheeling pump 2-steps

 

[Flashblastx]

Definitely better footing situation. But again this depends more on leverage since everyone's body's are different lengths.

Your shoulders are starting to rotate back more but the frame is not pulling you back enough, look at the angle SW's body forms compared to yours, you're much to upright weight too much forward. Probably from tipping over.

It should feel difficult to get onto the front heel cause the frame is literally not letting you.

Don't be afraid to lean a bit over the rear foot, just not past the rear foot. Since your weight and body is going forward it might feel much more over the rear foot than you would expect. This should happen if your leveraging and relaxing against the door frame enough. Try to relax.

Don't worry about swinging literally just be on the search for leverage. Really wouldn't even swing out of the door frame drill cause you really shouldn't be able to swing if you're doing it correctly all the stress should be felt through your arm and especially your grip. Only when you purposely let go should you swing. But practice swinging is just teaching you to let go and not letting you feel the leverage.

Really think a shot 90 degrees from that view would really help! Will be able to tell where your weight is going, I'm thinking in front of you not behind.

 

[Flashblastx]

Looking again, might have to step that rear foot even more forward. But really move around every way with the feet. See where you do or don't feel power to pull the frame off.

Also footage from the front

 

[sidewinder22]

Agree with FB ^.

Your feet are too backwards. Setup neutral, note how both my feet are flared out slightly. Need to play around with the rear foot placement, walk it around.

I also think your rear leg is remaining extended instead of sitting deeper into the drill.

 

[Brychanus]

Agree with FB ^.

Your feet are too backwards. Setup neutral, note how both my feet are flared out slightly. Need to play around with the rear foot placement, walk it around.

I also think your rear leg is remaining extended instead of sitting deeper into the drill.

Definitely better footing situation. But again this depends more on leverage since everyone's body's are different lengths.
...
Really think a shot 90 degrees from that view would really help! Will be able to tell where your weight is going, I'm thinking in front of you not behind.

I realized at least 3 things:
1. My drive leg was still dorked (I've known this but still lack the best way to describe it. Frustrating). It was not only remaining extended but never really "flowing" in leverage through the move for a Buttwipe; this was a broader motion/posture issue in my body. I've found many ways getting leverage on the drive leg that were blocking the dynamic shift action. I kept stepping back from the doorframe to rock over my legs or turning around against the pillar to do Buttwipe then turned around to do the frame drill again, seemed to help.

2. My drive leg was also further confused about what it was supposed to be doing. It was kind of trying to leverage me off one foot into the other rather than flowing, drifting, and dropping me in unity with my mass. It was more obvious when hanging onto and "sitting" and then shifting against the doorframe to set up a buttwipe.

3. In perpetual drill, my feet were never really making ground contact like Elephant walk etc. This morning it felt more obvious that my stance and posture etc. were just a bit off so the overall move was impossible and I was always compensating.

Here's where I ended with doorframe, not sure it is actually better, posting rear and head-on views. Feels more in leverage and more butt-wipey more like I can just drop off the frame by letting go with my hand this time. Still might be issues I'm not sensitive to:



New perpetual swinging roughly on the plane I felt in doorframe:


New standstill:

 

[Brychanus]

Don't worry about swinging literally just be on the search for leverage. Really wouldn't even swing out of the door frame drill cause you really shouldn't be able to swing if you're doing it correctly all the stress should be felt through your arm and especially your grip. Only when you purposely let go should you swing. But practice swinging is just teaching you to let go and not letting you feel the leverage.

Wanted to affirm I heard you even though you see a practice swing at the end of each view in the videos above. I only let go in the examples there to help teach my body the difference between forcing the shift off my drive leg vs. literally 'let go' of the doorframe and let the swing unwind. Plus to see if it reveals anything else funny going on. Drive leg has been a real nightmare for me.

 

[Brychanus]

Shift seemed a little tighter in a couple lunchtime throws and after a bit more doorframe so updating post.

Lots of bouncing and moving around to find leverage points. Feels like I'm getting more time in transition staying in balance on the drive side yet shifting more abruptly into the plant. I can actually see how my body is supported better in transition on the drive leg than before in these. Slowed down to 50-70% so I could better distinguish the old shift from the new shift. I think in addition to the feet/buttwipe action I have to keep reinforcing how I "grab the frame" with disc in hand - little differences have impacts on the whole swing and whether my wrist curls too much into pocket etc. These feel less and less like I'm doing any work and just letting a swing unfold with my weight & rock. Let's see what the brain trust thinks.

4x throws



Reposting DF and PD drills for convenience:

 

[Flashblastx]

Regarding door frame drill video.

I think rear foot still needs to get walked up more. You are leaning over so far onto the front foot you shouldn't be able to get that far over if doing it correctly.

If you look at still shots and compare them to SW you still don't have the backwards lean that SW posted of you two in comparison which leads me to think you're still shifting from the front/leaning over/not pulled taut at all. Which explains why you are so on top of the front foot.

Also given your left arm and how far back towards target/rotating horizontally it goes I think you're forcing the rotation of shoulders rather than letting the frame rotate you back from relaxation. That or it's counter balancing your weight since you're weight is going in front of you while shifting.

Just looks like you're getting far too deep into a squat with no resistance to do so. You shouldn't be able to do that since the frame is pulling you back up/bouncing back and forth. As soon as you start to sit/shift/crush the can you should feel the frame pulling you back up as heel touches the ground for just a second, shouldn't be landing and standing on heel.

The leverage you lack in the door frame is the same in your throw. Once you truly feel that leverage there's no going back.

 

[Brychanus]

Regarding door frame drill video.

I think rear foot still needs to get walked up more. You are leaning over so far onto the front foot you shouldn't be able to get that far over if doing it correctly.

If you look at still shots and compare them to SW you still don't have the backwards lean that SW posted of you two in comparison which leads me to think you're still shifting from the front/leaning over/not pulled taut at all. Which explains why you are so on top of the front foot.

Also given your left arm and how far back towards target/rotating horizontally it goes I think you're forcing the rotation of shoulders rather than letting the frame rotate you back from relaxation. That or it's counter balancing your weight since you're weight is going in front of you while shifting.

Just looks like you're getting far too deep into a squat with no resistance to do so. You shouldn't be able to do that since the frame is pulling you back up/bouncing back and forth. As soon as you start to sit/shift/crush the can you should feel the frame pulling you back up as heel touches the ground for just a second, shouldn't be landing and standing on heel.

The leverage you lack in the door frame is the same in your throw. Once you truly feel that leverage there's no going back.

I guess you can tell I've spent a life time muscling things with my upper body!

Thanks for sticking with me - this conceptually makes sense and I'll keep trying to get my body to do it. It's like I can separately do a buttwipe, but when getting the mass shift against the frame I can find so many ways to get leverage or a kinda shift that feel powerful it's still hard to find the right one. I'll focus on what you said here later today.

This morning I tried something in the gym lawnmower pull style to see if moving dynamically against weight would help trying to find the load and shift like against a doorframe. It I did this exercise 6 months ago I'd not be able to do it with this amount of weight without a ton of effort risking hurting myself. If I didn't lead the cable weight with my mass shifting first it felt awful or effortful or hurt somewhere, and I focused on making it glide out toward the target effortlessly. If I felt any strong arming at all I reset my feet - should feel like the arm is just carrying it through gliding out from my chest. I focused on setting into the stance and changed it around a few times. Any better or more of the same?




Putting the discs down for a couple days and gonna keep trying against the frame.

 

[Brychanus]

Regarding door frame drill video.

Hey, this feels and looks totally different after the cable pull. New door frame:

 

[Brychanus]

Sorry, had to try it. Pls check drill but wanted to share that exit velocity is going up at no effort in a small weight shift:

 

[jupiterboy]

Door frame drill question. My original take on the drill was that I was searching for a height and leverage point where I would exert max force on the frame. This gets me pretty low, more like a tug-o-war type situation. I absolutely can't replicate this in a swing as there is no door frame. I've kinda struggled with it. Like, I can find that max force point, but it also requires a bunch of lean and getting my cog way off balance. What I'm seeing here is seems like you are working within the context of a normal swing height and width of stance, and looking for power in that context.