Fixing forehand wobble flutter OAT ideas?

[Waddball]

I've read many threads on this, and watched many videos, and it seems to me that there are many different and successful ways to throw forehand. Summarizing:

Grip: some use a more flight-plate oriented grip, side of the finger against the rim. Others use finger pad(s) against rim, with a more vertical palm at release. Some bury it tight in the meat between thumb and index, some keep it looser (generally avoiding the big index knuckle; but that knuckle doesn't seem to affect others).

Release: some insist on palm up, others are fine with palm neutral or even some pronation/palm-down (but never rolling over at the hit).

Approach: some start sideways/crab-wise and end facing front, while others start front and twist/rotate hips mid-stride (and then end facing front).

There are also probably 10x that many ways to screw it up, which is where I'm at. I've tried variations on all the above (really!), and I just can't seem to eliminate flutter right out of the hand. I noticed that throwing a tomahawk or 3/4 type (sort of like I throw a football), it is usually dead smooth. It's when I drop lower to the side or submarine that things go awry, even at a standstill. So, some questions:

1. How active should the wrist be? I know it needs to cock back fully and be somewhat active, but do you actually try to really slam it 100% at the hit (basically creating all the spin), or should it be more smooth and maybe 50% and allow a little pinch-point/pivot?

2. Where should the hit happen relative to the hip? Even, just past, a foot past? Maybe it depends too much on individual physique to generalize. I struggle to get elbow much ahead of wrist, so my hit point tends to be well past the hip.

3. How much does swing plane affect OAT? Will a small amount of "swoop" have a noticeable affect? I still get some flutter even with standstills (no swoop), which points to grip, but then like I noted above, a 3/4 overhand throw using same grip comes out smooth, which I think points to swing plane. Argh!

4. What's the ratio of thumb to wrist angle to keep nose down? I generally use wrist angle, but I wonder if I should be pressing more with thumb.

 

[timothy42b]

I noticed that throwing a tomahawk or 3/4 type (sort of like I throw a football), it is usually dead smooth. It's when I drop lower to the side or submarine that things go awry, even at a standstill. So, some questions:

I'm struggling too. It looks so effortless when others do it, not true for me.

But. I was at a Scott Stokely clinic recently. He said a forehand is not like throwing a frisbee, it is like throwing a baseball 3/4 overhand. The difference is you lean over so a 3/4 ball throw comes out flat. It sure looked good when he did it, not so much for me but I;m working on it.

Also, he said your hips need to be forward facing at the hit. He recommended keeping them forward the whole time and just rotating your torso back, whether you do standstill or run up, but he mentioned that a lot of people turn their hips back and then forward. He wanted us trying to stay forward if possible.

 

[seedlings]

Throw with less power, focus on spin. Once you can throw a hundred feet with lots of spin, start to add power.

I had an abysmal forehand, but started throwing ALL approach shots with a flick. Once I started to feel comfortable with those, the longer shots started to come. Caveat: I can only throw 300' forehand and still can't throw a Teebird without wobble. Something about that mold.

Edit, among all those out there, I really found Uliberri's vid helpful:

 

[txmxer]

I've been working on my forehand. It was horrible. Really backed it down to try to get a smooth release at 100' or so. That is all flick—forearm and wrist.

I'm now up to 200' + approaching 300'. Working on that full throw like Stokely talks about.

Same thing seedlings suggested. Work on smooth release. 50 to 100'. As Stokely says all discs are FH and BH, but I found throwing a DX Valkery was the first disc I was getting some distance smoothly.

 

[sidewinder22]

One major cause of OAT or wobble is your body moving into the swing creating slack, instead of clearing back away from the swing and pulling the string taut.

 

[Waddball]

Throw with less power, focus on spin. Once you can throw a hundred feet with lots of spin, start to add power.

Thanks. I've tried something like this, even to the point of giving myself some wrist pain from all the snapping, and it doesn't seem to help. But I like the Ulibarri idea of just throwing 20', so I'll give that whirl. (But I still think there's just some dumb simple thing I'm doing that I can't figure out.)

I played around with different approaches and recently tried (and mangled every throw) using Eagle McMahon's crow-hop sort of thing. I think I'll stick with Stokely's, as it's simple and repeatable.

And sidewinder22, I'm struggling to understand keeping the string taut in forehand. Discs are just so light that it's hard to feel it. I do suspect that you're right though, that I'm accelerating too soon and muscling it even when I think I'm not. Still, I thought in forehand the left/lead foot was supposed to point mostly forward, so not a reverse image of the backhand. But you're advocating an actual sit move, toe-to-heel and then foot pivots on heel like in backhand?

 

[dr.chainslove]

Stokely helped me fix mine with the release angle/baseball tidbits. Once I got that down, reducing wobble IMO has so much to do with wrist action. If you really focus on snapping that wrist, the disc will come out so much cleaner!

 

[azplaya25]

I think it's an exact reverse of the backhand. Instead of hopping /running up, just work on smooth little putter shots:



Little putter flicks come in really handy on approaches. I use my Rhyno probably more often than Barsby, it's a fantastic shot to have in the bag

 

[azplaya25]

Also, if your wrist is getting sore from snapping, you may be over doing it in the wrist snapping. I actually keep my wrist fairly stiff and focus on flinging the disc off of my fingers. I'd watch SW22's grip and alignment video and play around with that flip back drill where you flip from a two finger backhand to a 2 finger forehand grip. My wrist snaps in the follow through, but I don't focus on generating power with wrist snap, it's from finger spring, just like in back hand.

 

[seedlings]

Also, if your wrist is getting sore from snapping, you may be over doing it in the wrist snapping. I actually keep my wrist fairly stiff and focus on flinging the disc off of my fingers. I'd watch SW22's grip and alignment video and play around with that flip back drill where you flip from a two finger backhand to a 2 finger forehand grip. My wrist snaps in the follow through, but I don't focus on generating power with wrist snap, it's from finger spring, just like in back hand.

This. Spin comes when your (fore)arm moves forward quick, and the disc lags behind. Quick movement with your forearm, wrist cocked back. It's similar to casting a fishing pole.

 

[Waddball]

Also, if your wrist is getting sore from snapping, you may be over doing it in the wrist snapping.

Thanks, I'll definitely try that next time out. I kept reading "active wrist" and "snap to generate spin" so I've been trying that.

When I first started I was doing shorter approaches with an ultimate style split finger throw. Usually pretty smooth. But it doesn't scale up past 120' or so for me, so that's what led me down this path.

 

[seedlings]

I play with a guy who has played baseball and softball all his life. He uses split finger V grip forehand and throws super hard. OAT kills some great shots though. I wonder if there is an upper limit for velocity/spin with that split finger grip?

 

[araytx]

I've read many threads on this, and watched many videos, and it seems to me that there are many different and successful ways to throw forehand. Summarizing:

Grip: some use a more flight-plate oriented grip, side of the finger against the rim. Others use finger pad(s) against rim, with a more vertical palm at release. Some bury it tight in the meat between thumb and index, some keep it looser (generally avoiding the big index knuckle; but that knuckle doesn't seem to affect others).

Release: some insist on palm up, others are fine with palm neutral or even some pronation/palm-down (but never rolling over at the hit).

Approach: some start sideways/crab-wise and end facing front, while others start front and twist/rotate hips mid-stride (and then end facing front).

There are also probably 10x that many ways to screw it up, which is where I'm at. I've tried variations on all the above (really!), and I just can't seem to eliminate flutter right out of the hand. I noticed that throwing a tomahawk or 3/4 type (sort of like I throw a football), it is usually dead smooth. It's when I drop lower to the side or submarine that things go awry, even at a standstill. So, some questions:

1. How active should the wrist be? I know it needs to cock back fully and be somewhat active, but do you actually try to really slam it 100% at the hit (basically creating all the spin), or should it be more smooth and maybe 50% and allow a little pinch-point/pivot?

2. Where should the hit happen relative to the hip? Even, just past, a foot past? Maybe it depends too much on individual physique to generalize. I struggle to get elbow much ahead of wrist, so my hit point tends to be well past the hip.

3. How much does swing plane affect OAT? Will a small amount of "swoop" have a noticeable affect? I still get some flutter even with standstills (no swoop), which points to grip, but then like I noted above, a 3/4 overhand throw using same grip comes out smooth, which I think points to swing plane. Argh!

4. What's the ratio of thumb to wrist angle to keep nose down? I generally use wrist angle, but I wonder if I should be pressing more with thumb.

Stokely, one of the top 5 forehands of all time, would say that if you get it right throwing 3/4 overhand or nearly overhand (on a sidearm like you say about the tomahawk), then the way to change the angle to a flat or hyzer sidearm is to lean, or bend, at the waist the ENTIRE upper body so you don't really change the arm angle, that you're changing the upper body angle.

he talks about this at 5:45 in this video.