Forehand and sore side

[fasteddy8170]

Oh, and by the way, it's too bad Feldberg didn't continue to do those videos. He must've lost interest or something. They probably would've been pretty good. Because disc golf definitely needs its own Shawn Clement.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm a bit confused with the FH stuff. I've been watching this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOECjLjhiTI

In it, Critter Bill and Mark Ellis pretty much plant with their front foot almost straight at the target. Maybe not quite. But only 10 to 15 degrees from straight on. Then in Mike Raley's case, he plants 45 degrees away but his back leg comes around.

In addition, Critter Bill's back doesn't come around too much. Whereas Mark's ends up to the side of his front foot.

How do I sync all that together because it seems to contradict what you're telling me, Sw22?

It should be noted: Jeremy Koling almost plants his front foot straight at the target and his back leg ends up beside his front leg.

It should be noted that Big Jerm is a 6'8" man beast, a freak of nature. Good luck trying to mimic him. I'm taking about maximizing power and efficiency.

In the discraft video, you hear Mark Ellis talk about throwing across your body. How do you throw across your body unless your arm swings across your front foot. All those guys are throwing across their front foot, some of them pivot to the foot facing the target, just like I do. When throwing with massive hyzer the front foot can be almost forward, but the swing of the arm(power) is more out to the left side(RHFH) than straight forward, so it's still throwing across the foot/body.

All of those guys are finishing with the rear foot behind the front foot, some come around after the finish because they are recoiling or falling forward.

 

[fasteddy8170]

Well, I gave the forehand another shot this evening, getting about the same results--a very sore upper leg. By the time I shot this video it was already sore. As you can see, I'm hardly even throwing the discs by this point as my leg was already bothering me. My perception is that the further I bend over to the side to get the disc on the right plane to throw, the more the leg hurts. Because I can throw thumbers and tomahawks all day and the only thing that gets sore is my shoulder.

Video

Second video is me trying the doorframe drill in the field. I use the water jug as the marker where the door jamb would be. What I see when I watch this video is my shoulder is coming over the top, despite me getting the hip forward. I guess what I'm wondering is what should be the next move after I pop the hip up. The issue is that it's easy to feel that pull when your hand's on the door jamb. But with nothing stationary to pull against, it's difficult to tell what I should and shouldn't be doing.

Video

 

[Jaxully]

I am by no means and expert but it looks like you are rotating your whole body except your front foot which should spin to match the movement of the rest of the body. When keeping this foot stationary and using the rest of the body to create torque there's going to be a lot of stress built up somewhere. Just something for you to try.

 

[Dan Ensor]

My perception is that the further I bend over to the side to get the disc on the right plane to throw, the more the leg hurts. Because I can throw thumbers and tomahawks all day and the only thing that gets sore is my shoulder.

Then start by throwing forehand rollers or tomahawks. A very similar approach; then work the angle back down to flat, then to hyzer.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your knee and hip are not braced behind your ankle. Knee must stay behind the ankle to brace through your hip and clear it. Notice how all my mass is behind the front foot and disc at release. Your mass is ahead of your front foot and the disc. My rear foot is airborne, so there's no weight or balance left on it. Your rear foot is still pushing on the ground, so your rotation or lack of is centered on the wrong leg and jams up. Also throwing massive wounded ducks with the nose up and arm coming down over the top.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm pretty sure I've told you all this a few times before. Your foot pressures are on on the outside edge of your feet, we should not be able to see the bottom of your arches. You can see I keep the pressure on the inside edges of my feet, staying inside posture and in athletic position. In the backswing you are already totally cooked leverage wise with your rear foot rolled over to the outside edge.

At the hit, your front shoulder is way open and lined up to throw sky high out to the left. Your front hip is not cleared and your front knee is locked straight. You can see my shoulders are almost square to us viewing, so my arm can release further forward(my elbow is still bent), and my shoulders are level, so the power is being directed on a level plane. My front hip is cleared back and braced behind the ankle and knee. I've made a positive move from the rear foot with the heel leading the toes forward.

You can't practice the drill this way. You are moving into separate positions and being very static like the disc weighs nothing and stopping momentum. When actually throwing you must move into the backswing and into the forward swing in one fluid motion like the disc weighs as much as a sledgehammer, you would not stop in the middle of it because you wouldn't be able to hold all that momentum back and start it again. Also when you are making that first move with your hips, you are turning your hips open instead of moving your weight forward from behind you. Your rear heel is still on the ground, it should be airborne ahead of the toes because you moved your weight forward. Lastly your last throw is setup way open in stance from the start.

 

[tu-f-o]

honestly I'm shocked you're not hurting from backhand as well. Both throws seem, not smooth or coordinated/properly timed.
Also both throws lack follow through.

When I was sore from like hundreds of repeated forehand drives in a park, it was due to lack of follow through.

 

[UCC Wizard]

1. always keep your palm up.

2. less motion/throw slower.

3. it's more wrist than arm.

I know this isnt the root of your leg pain, but I did notice your hand turning completely over on follow thru. I throw about 330 FH, and the back of my throwing hand never stops facing the ground. Just an FYI

As far as the leg pain, its a little surprising since you aren't throwing at max power or anything. I would strongly recommend a 15 minute stretching routine before throwing any discs, every time you go throw. To be honest a good 15 minute stretching routine twice a day every day (morning and night) will do anyone a world of good, especially if you're a physically active person.

 

[fasteddy8170]

I haven't been able to go out and throw the last couple days due to family stuff and the weather. So, there's nothing to show.

But Sidewinder22, there's something I think I need a deeper explanation on. First of all, your assessment in #27 is all correct and I'm still doing a lot of wrong things. But I think my forehand is going to be a lot better the next time I can film. In any case . . .

The deeper explanation--to me, what you're doing in your videos and what Dave Feldberg is doing on that video on Page 2 look nothing like each other. He's showing this very pronounced hip thrust forward. And I guess that's what I've been trying to re-create. But to me, it doesn't look like he is moving the weight from behind. Am I taking the Feldberg video a little too literally by getting that hip forward and pushing it toward the sky? Reading your critique, it seems that I am.

Once I'm able to film again I'll be able to ask about the rest because it's too difficult to type.

Tu-f-o, I agree with you the throws aren't smooth or properly coordinated. When I see myself throw I am also surprised I've never hurt anything throwing backhand. That's why I am trying to figure this all out because I know my 44yr old body won't put up with bad technique for long.

 

[sidewinder22]

The deeper explanation--to me, what you're doing in your videos and what Dave Feldberg is doing on that video on Page 2 look nothing like each other. He's showing this very pronounced hip thrust forward. And I guess that's what I've been trying to re-create. But to me, it doesn't look like he is moving the weight from behind. Am I taking the Feldberg video a little too literally by getting that hip forward and pushing it toward the sky? Reading your critique, it seems that I am.

It amazes me how you manage to get into these non-athletic positions with both knees locked straight and both heels on the ground. You should always be in a dynamic position where you could support 200lbs over your shoulders and be able to move and that means your knees must be flexed. Making a forward move with your hip/weight, your rear heel should move forward as it comes off the ground with toes/instep still pushing/leveraging.


If you were loaded like in the end of door frame position, top of the backswing, you should have no choice but to move forward. Somehow you manage to be in the top of your backswing and just stop there. That means you have a lot of turning/torque left out your backswing. See The Move.

What Feldy is showing is the continuation just after the Door Frame. Drills are exaggerations to feel at certain points, some of these overlap. Feel isn't always what you can see. It kind of feels like the hip is going to the sky or rising when you clear it (internally rotate the femur against the pelvis there is extension/resistance), also because your rear hip/knee should be lowering because it's moving forward still leveraged. You must kept your front knee somewhat bent, it should stiffen(but not lock straight out like you are doing). Toward the end of his video you can see how closed his front foot is, like in the crush the can drill. He even says to bring the rear foot behind(emphasize on behind) the front foot. He keeps his rear toes basically dragging forward just over the ground with the heel leading. Your rear foot just spins out and goes straight up instead of moving your weight forward.

Your hips can be closed away from the target and pushed forward without really turning. When you lock out your front knee you turn open and lose your front hip resistance there, there needs to be some resistance like talked about in The Move Part 2. You are so flat footed in that video you are not really shifting your weight in either direction. Move your heels up and down backward and forward and stay balanced toward the toes and knees flexed toward your toes. Your rear heel must move up and forward to move your hips/weight forward and your rear knee must remain flexed while moving your hips forward as well. You are not using any plantar flexion of your rear foot.

The Hershyzer drill is kind of in between these drills. When you push your butt/hip against the wall through your instep(plantar flexion) with the knee still flexed, the only reason the heel doesn't come up in this part of the drill is because the wall is preventing your hip from moving further forward. In the second part the heel comes up forward and behind because you are pushing against the wall with your hand and not your butt/hip which also moves forward.

 

[fasteddy8170]

I was going to upload forehand video tonight but YouTube is acting stupid so it will have to wait until tomorrow. I think my flicking form is looking a lot better, though.

As for the backhand, Sidewinder22, I'm going to shoot a video to show specifically what I'm not understanding. That upload will also have to wait until tomorrow.

 

[fasteddy8170]

Throwing a few forehand. Leg didn't hurt this time although kneeling lower to the ground like that is awkward.

Forehand

The form looks a little better. Right now I'm getting a few to go straight--usually when I don't throw hard. The toughest part with the arm motion is finding the right angle between throwing a high pop-up hyzer to the left and ripping something over way to the right on an anhyzer. If I can just get a consistent forehand out to about 250ft I'd more than pleased. Just so it's accurate I don't care about the distance so much.

 

[sidewinder22]

Atleast you are getting off your rear side now much better. That angle is going to be tough to consistently hit without bracing the front knee behind the ankle before you swing. You need a steady post to swing from. Your post is falling/collapsing forward during the swing. Try landing more on your toes first then heel.

 

[fasteddy8170]

Sidewinder22, from the rear POV of your forehand video, I notice you keep your arm a lot flatter than many other good flickers. Personal choice or something else? I've been trying to keep my elbow close--should that be my goal?

 

[sidewinder22]

Not sure what aspect you talking about in flatter. That standstill shot is basically a flat shot, slightest anhyzer. Here's some hyzer throws.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBfJQLy3dDw#t=3m10s




Keeping the elbow in, is a myth. The elbow just needs to lead.

 

[fasteddy8170]

I guess when I watch that Discraft video again your elbow and arm is very much like Critter Bill's. Whereas it seems like Raley's elbow is much closer to his body and thus is arm is more bent, while Mark Ellis' arm is pretty straight--which he mentions in the video. Just an observation. I'll just concentrate on leading with the elbow and not worry about how flat my arm is.

 

[DiscFifty]

Fwiw...you're 44, why give up forehand completely, it's not worth risking long term pain, injury, etc. And also..with the upmost respect...this thread is starting to sound alot like "over thinking it". My greatest "aha moments" occurred while I was injured and I had to slow way down to throw. It caused me to concentrate on late acceleration, maximizing grip just before releasing the disc, and understanding snap by learning when to lock (coil) the wrist. I'm a rhbh thrower and now I'm working on my lhbh and I'm already throwing 200ft which is a nice "get out of jail" tool to have. I suggest taking a putter out for a few weeks and just relax and throw, throw, throw. Keep track of your progress. Work on goals of 100,200,250ft. The key point being achieving those distances while being totally relaxed and not feeling like you're throwing 100% power or strong arming it. You will be surprised how just throwing a putter (relaxed) for a few weeks can help you achieve good form naturally. At 44+ years old, it's not about throwing 400-500ft anymore. It's about being able to play decently, having fun, without hurting yourself long term.

 

[DiscFifty]

lol..should be "why not give up forehand completely..."

 

[Dan Ensor]

Keeping the elbow in, is a myth. The elbow just needs to lead.

It's not related to scapular loading?