Standstill Forehand Help

[sidewinder22]

1. I have adjusted my grip (a few weeks ago) trying to get a more to combat this. But I've definitely gotten lax and need to refocus on squeezing.

2. This has been on my list of stuff-that-is-obviously-wrong-with-my-throw-but-I-have-not-known-how-to-adress, so will try to be more cognizant. Is it similar to backhand where I push that offhand down and in a bit? Or just keep it wrapped in?

3. Oh wow, yeah. That seems pretty egregious. Not sure how to address that one but thank you for putting it on my radar. Gonna mess around with it and see if I can get my head wrapped around it.

1. I was actually going to link Woj's vid but couldn't find it. Here's my grip.

2-3. I think 2 and 3 are related. Your whole body is rotating toward your left hand and lifts the throwing elbow. You also need a little side bend to the right.

 

[sidewinder22]

Lots of wobble on all of them. I think you are pronating your wrist.

I don't think he's really pronating, definitely not as much as I or Eagle do(did).

 

[sidewinder22]

A lot of that does sound similar to me and my experience. I'm a left handed baseball hitter and could stick... nothing translated to RHBH. I was a left handed hockey player with a good shot and nothing translated there either. Have a good right throwing arm but never had a forehand.

Something is wrong with my alignment and form on a fundamental level. And after a decade+, it just feels like the bad habits are too ingrained for me to identify, let alone fix.

I was never taught FH grip or had to learn how to throw FH as my throwing background translated easily. The first time I gripped the disc, felt just like a fastball grip to me. Disc golf sidearm to me is probably most similar to throwing a football sidearm like Pat Mahomes. Ever throw one of those nerf spiral footballs sidearm? The way you spin it is very similar.

 

[Brodysseus]

I was never taught FH grip or had to learn how to throw FH as my throwing background translated easily. The first time I gripped the disc, felt just like a fastball grip to me. Disc golf sidearm to me is probably most similar to throwing a football sidearm like Pat Mahomes. Ever throw one of those nerf spiral footballs sidearm? The way you spin it is very similar.

When I first went to forehand, the split grip felt the most natural. I think in part because I was used to the index and middle finger separation a ball. I moved away from that as most people did not recommend it as it is not conducive to a strong wrist movement.

I have always been a very over the top thrower. Even messing around as a kid, sidearm was just never something I could wrap my head around.

 

[Brodysseus]

1. I was actually going to link Woj's vid but couldn't find it. Here's my grip. View attachment 333600

2-3. I think 2 and 3 are related. Your whole body is rotating toward your left hand and lifts the throwing elbow. You also need a little side bend to the right.
View attachment 333601

1. I'll keep messing with my grip. May be the pictures but your grip looks more comfortable than the "power grip" typically does.

2. Yes, I am very straight up and down. Will certainly be more conscious of bending over. As for the pulling to the right, I 100% see it. Now it's going to be finding the right cue to hopefully attempt to correct it.

 

[Brodysseus]

I hesitate a bit to offer any advice, being one of the less accomplished throwers here. I've just started using forehand on the course the past couple of months after years of thinking it was beyond me.

But here's my mental image, feel free to ignore or discard.

There are two parts to a forehand throw. One is the weight transfer, arm spiral kinetic chain and delivery exactly like throwing a fast ball. The other is the clean release on plane at the end. Sure, they should be one continuous motion and you'll never throw 600 feet like Ryan Sheldon without both. But the little wrist flick at the end can go an amazing distance with little effort. That's probably the part Josh got right, although I think his method teaches elbow forward "dart throwing" if you're not careful.

So if the power throw isn't working for you yet, just throw the 8 - 12 inches before the hit, but do it cleanly. 200 feet without a wobble would save a lot of pars on my short course.

Oh, and yeah I did thousands of hammer pounds too, didn't help me either. There's a disconnect here but that's for another post.

Yes, I really think just getting a simple/repeatable clean release would serve me the best. I definitely want to set myself up that if I ever get that smooth, wobble free release I can translate it to a full bore throw... but heading back to square one and focusing on that hit moment might be necessary.

 

[User3467]

I'm 100% pushing it. I have done the Hammer drill for years (all the way back in the DGR days with the fingers taped up with duct tape picture) and a disc has never felt like that for me, it has never felt heavier on the outside edge.

It literally feels like I put anti-spin on a disc.

So can you snap a towel at someone? How does it feel when you're doing that, assuming you can? Do you feel like the towel has drag behind you that you can really sense while within the motion? I just started putting again last Monday for the first time in two years, and one of the big things I've been telling myself a lot across approx. 2000 putts in these last few weeks has been to step outside of myself and observe my body, let the pitch happen and observe the motion and feel of the motion after the fact (with putting there's more actual observation, I think, since you're slower, but noticing the feel too for sure).

Based on your post just above - I agree, you do need to focus on the hit. But I'm not sure how if something like the hammer drill isn't working. I'm assuming resistance bands or simply having someone on the other end of the disc also haven't worked?

When I first went to forehand, the split grip felt the most natural. I think in part because I was used to the index and middle finger separation a ball. I moved away from that as most people did not recommend it as it is not conducive to a strong wrist movement.

I have always been a very over the top thrower. Even messing around as a kid, sidearm was just never something I could wrap my head around.

Probably a bit of what helped me as a new player was that I grew up throwing a ton of sidearm when I pitched and whenever they put me at 3rd or short. More so the infield work - because that was my right arm. I pitched sidearm lefty but was a bit closer to a 3/4 slot as a righty.

 

[Brodysseus]

So can you snap a towel at someone? How does it feel when you're doing that, assuming you can? Do you feel like the towel has drag behind you that you can really sense while within the motion? I just started putting again last Monday for the first time in two years, and one of the big things I've been telling myself a lot across approx. 2000 putts in these last few weeks has been to step outside of myself and observe my body, let the pitch happen and observe the motion and feel of the motion after the fact (with putting there's more actual observation, I think, since you're slower, but noticing the feel too for sure).

Based on your post just above - I agree, you do need to focus on the hit. But I'm not sure how if something like the hammer drill isn't working. I'm assuming resistance bands or simply having someone on the other end of the disc also haven't worked?

Probably a bit of what helped me as a new player was that I grew up throwing a ton of sidearm when I pitched and whenever they put me at 3rd or short. More so the infield work - because that was my right arm. I pitched sidearm lefty but was a bit closer to a 3/4 slot as a righty.

Yeah I can feel the hit with the hammer but can never translate it to a disc. Different grip/feel, somethings lost there.

Maybe a tape weights on one one side of a disc?

And I can't really snap a towel forehand, so that's telling.

 

[User3467]

Yeah I can feel the hit with the hammer but can never translate it to a disc. Different grip/feel, somethings lost there.

Maybe a tape weights on one one side of a disc?

And I can't really snap a towel forehand, so that's telling.

One option is to have someone hold the disc on the end opposing your grip, and work on "finding" the feel of pulling it, and then trying to internally replicate the sensation with the lessened weight of the disc alone. When I do that to teach people I tend to talk about it in terms of the stuff I've read here about little kids developing great form more easily because the disc is heavier relative their mass, and as they get older that translates to really feeling the heft of the disc despite its light mass.

 

[timothy42b]

1. Looks like your grip comes loose at release. You want to clench your fingers into your palm to make the disc pivot around at release.

I bolded part of sidewinder's sentence in case you missed the dependent clause.

A pivot on a pin joint is by definition on plane. Of course a frictionless torque free pin joint is an engineering abstraction, but it can be pretty close.

Your wobble is because the disc flight plate is not coplanar with the pivot of the disc at the hit. I'm guessing that is the actual value of the hammer pound drill, and the reason it didn't help me back in the day.

And then if you can get the pivot on plane with the baseball swing path you have it solved.

So where exactly is that pin joint? I think it could be either the finger to disc contact point or the wrist joint, but not both without risk of interference.

 

[User3467]

I bolded part of sidewinder's sentence in case you missed the dependent clause.

A pivot on a pin joint is by definition on plane. Of course a frictionless torque free pin joint is an engineering abstraction, but it can be pretty close.

Your wobble is because the disc flight plate is not coplanar with the pivot of the disc at the hit. I'm guessing that is the actual value of the hammer pound drill, and the reason it didn't help me back in the day.

And then if you can get the pivot on plane with the baseball swing path you have it solved.

So where exactly is that pin joint? I think it could be either the finger to disc contact point or the wrist joint, but not both without risk of interference.

I think this gets at the heart of what I'm trying to get him to sense with the notion of pulling vs pushing, and your bringing up the hammer exercise. For me, from my personal conceptualization and my proprioception, I feel like: when I am 'pulling' on the disc, the arm has no choice but to fall in line with the angle that the disc is on. So I can focus more on establishing the start of the swing to get the disc into that slot, and then let'er'rip, the arm falls in line with the disc, and I'm good as long as I set that up with the beginning of the swing.

 

[Brychanus]

I otherwise have little business talking about FH but I am going to add one "big picture" thing that suddenly worked for my overhands and then it made more intuitive sense what I was supposed to be doing for sidearm.

Not everyone responds to these moves the same way, but might be worth a shot. This fall I had been throwing a lot less while working on body training and doing this club exercise sequence for a couple months. Timestamp ~1:30 is what I'm referring to:


Sidewinder likes to talk about baseball long toss drills and "lengthening" the move in general, and those club drills are probably the best thing I've worked with to access that concept without any prior throwing experience. The longer you get in the swing, the more fluid and faster you are, especially once you find a rhythm. The one at 1:30 was really important for me because it was the first time I kind of felt how a fastball pitch is supposed to work.

Late in December I had a round where I ended up off the fairway a couple times among a lot of skinny trees, and I started looking for overhand lines. As soon as I set up the first thumber in my hand, I was about to toss it the way I used to, but it suddenly felt weak and silly to me. I then reset my stance and grip to be basically the same as an overhead vertical club swing, which helped fix the side bend, weight shift, and leverage on the disc all at once. Even without throwing a single overhand in months, I suddenly had tomahawks and thumbers that were repeatable round to round, longer, more accurate, and easier on the body. I actually look forward to throwing them now even if I have other shot options.

So maybe tinker with that in the extreme vertical like an overhand fastball to see if you can "get the trick," then bring it down to the forehand plane(s). You could also throw the club or hammer then try it with the disc. For me, I first had to feel the extreme syncing with gravity swinging overhand. After that, I could also start taking more aggressive plant strides/weight shifts toward the target to safely add juice to the throw.

I still find it harder throwing FH relative to extreme vertical overhand, but club swings helped my body get at some of the issues Chris and SW are mentioning above. If I ever get serious about my FH I'll spend more time swinging and throwing levers through the sidearm plane and "getting as long as possible."

There might be wisdom in here, or maybe I'm nuts. One way to find out!

 

[timothy42b]

I otherwise have little business talking about FH but I am going to add one "big picture" thing that suddenly worked for my overhands and then it made more intuitive sense what I was supposed to be doing for sidearm.

Not everyone responds to these moves the same way, but might be worth a shot. This fall I had been throwing a lot less while working on body training and doing this club exercise sequence for a couple months. Timestamp ~1:30 is what I'm referring to:

I've been doing that workout too. I didn't buy the club, I found a child's fat barrel plastic bat at a thrift store and put a couple pounds of sand in it for warmups. And I use a 1.5 and a 3 pound dead blow hammer from Harbor Freight, there is a little sand sound but you have to listen closely.

 

[Brychanus]

I've been doing that workout too. I didn't buy the club, I found a child's fat barrel plastic bat at a thrift store and put a couple pounds of sand in it for warmups. And I use a 1.5 and a 3 pound dead blow hammer from Harbor Freight, there is a little sand sound but you have to listen closely.

Nice - did want to add for any lurkers who were skeptical about the sand (I was too) that I think it really does help. It gives a lot of kinesthetic and audio feedback for the smoothness & length in some actions (swings) and/or the abruptness of other actions (punches). I got the 4lb club for Xmas, which most sources recommended as a good weight when balancing speed & resistance. Anecdotally I can get the thing moving pretty fast but I never run the risk of losing track of the feel for where the club head/sand are.