Forehand and sore side

[fasteddy8170]

This is about the 3rd time within the last 6 months I've tried to start to learn a forehand. Every time I try, I seem to hurt something on my body. Whereas I've been backhanding for 4 years and I've never hurt anything.

Back in February I was laid up for two days due to jamming my back while trying to throw forehand--and I wasn't even throwing hard, like 200ft. And I've never had a back issue in my life.

The time before that after 1 day of throwing I got a dull pain at the top of my right leg that wouldn't go away.

So, now that my body is feeling okay again, I thought I'd give it a try one more time. Well, this time I got a pain after about 3 throws in my oblique area--like 6 inches to the side and below my belly button. Like where your love handles are. I'm left handed and the pain is on my right side.

This is the video where it happened. Keep in mind: I know my form sucks. Well, it sucks because I've never throw forehand before. But even the lightest of flicking with just my arm makes the right side hurt. What's the deal?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljGnADq0PDU&feature=youtu.be

 

[sidewinder22]

Reminds me of your BH. You start with your stance too wide and leaning back instead of maintaining posture on the rear leg and turn into the braced rear hip, your feet never leave the ground so there's no weight moving. My weight is further loaded back with a more upright stance and front foot airborne about to stride forward with the rest of my weight like a pitcher.

In the hit pic, you are quite nose up and too far behind your front foot, your front knee is collapsing past your foot and your rear foot still on the ground and rear knee behind the hip. I'm hitting it right against the front foot nose down, front knee still braced behind the foot, and rear knee under the hip and rear heel airborne leading the toes.

 

[fasteddy8170]

So why is my side hurting? And why did my right hip hurt before that? And then my back locked up before that? Although my form is horrible, I don't see what I'm doing that is making my body be in pain. Because despite my backhand form being not good, I've never had any pain because of it.

 

[fasteddy8170]

But since I've got this thread started, we might as well hit the backhand too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ArnekLgmYI

 

[sidewinder22]

Because you jam yourself into the front leg instead of throwing from it.

 

[sidewinder22]

Lol, same thing. Stance too wide in setup and turning without shifting weight.

 

[TrustYourRubber]

I'm not going to critique your form, because I know it's bad already... I'm going to tell you the same thing I'd tell someone who is learning backhand. Slow down! Slower discs to start out with, even putters/mid-ranges. If you're so hell-bent on learning forehand, I'd take the time to piddle with some putters forehand before you tried mid-ranges. My guess is that now you're throwing the same drivers that you use BH. Clear mistake.

Coming from someone who throws 300'-350' forehand, I can tell you what you're not doing so well, and that's following through. If you stop short (instead of following through), then you're joints absorb the force of decelerating your throwing motion. This is a basic principle that applies to the other throwing forms, including overhead techniques better known as tomahawks and thumbers.

 

[Fraser]

To expand on what SW22 said about you jamming yourself, with you having such a wide stance, you shift your weight onto your right thigh which jams into your hip which torques your back which in turn causes the pain in your right side muscles. At the hit, your right foot is still more closed and needs to be more open. Shortening your stance and opening your hips earlier will help delay the hit which will get more of a proper weight shift allowing you to be able to get a more complete follow-through. This should also alleviate any undue stress on your midsection as your lower and upper body will be more in sync. This will also allow you to generate more power from the ground as opposed to just twisting your upper body around a fixed hip position. Also, getting a proper weight shift will help keep the nose of the disc down as you are coming forward onto the heel of your right foot.

Mimicking SW22's images will serve you well. Pay very close attention to what is going on with the lower body. It looks to me that once you get that lower body positioning corrected, you'll have a very smooth and unforced FH. Your upper body is doing a lot of things correctly and just small timing aspects will likely only need to be addressed.

As for TYR's post about same drivers as BH being a big mistake, I disagree. What he said about mids/putters is good advice and is something that I recommend as well. Drivers, though, is more about how they feel in your grip than anything else. Every disc can be used with a FH throw and some aren't necessarily better than others just because of the mold. It's a feel and preference of flight that dictates what discs you should throw. Some molds are more forgiving of form mistakes, but if your form is clean, which is what I assume you are trying to do, the mold doesn't nearly matter as much.

 

[fasteddy8170]

Two videos. First one is me practicing forehand at home. Pretending to throw a baseball sidearm--like, what form would that be. Then converting the grip to throwing a disc. I think I'll able to work something out, although my thigh hurt after doing a bunch of this. I think it's the continuous motion of me dipping on that right leg. And me being 44yo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaVwLPPspA8&feature=youtu.be


Second one is me trying out the doorframe drill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJw3ermU7EY

 

[sidewinder22]

In the door frame, you are set up slightly too narrow stance wise, and not leading with your hips moving forward. When you move your hips forward(weight shift) you should really feel the tension through your lat as you hold on to the frame and your shoulders/disc have not moved yet. When you release your grip it should be like a spring unloading in your core.

 

[sidewinder22]

Feldy hip to sky...
https://vimeo.com/64171158

 

[fasteddie]

I'm working on my FH game this season as well and had a few A HA! moments that drastically improved my results.

1. always keep your palm up.

2. less motion/throw slower.

3. it's more wrist than arm.

 

[fasteddy8170]

Went out and threw some forehand today. Unfortunately I didn't get to film it.

Well, I can say that releasing the disc up towards my front foot has definitely alleviated the pain I was getting in my side. And the throws were much more crisp, straight, with some distance. But . . .

Now the pain has moved to the middle of my right thigh in the front, like halfway between my hip and my knee. And I wasn't throwing that hard. Starts to hurt after about 20 throws. I guess I'm jamming something there now. When I stop throwing the pain goes away after about ten minutes. I practiced my backhand after that and the pain never came back.

So, I'm sure it's a technique/follow-through issue.

 

[sidewinder22]

Sounds like an odd/bad place to have pain, if you are jamming up you are likely stressing/bending your femur bone. Having a wide stance makes it worse, because you can't get balanced on either leg easily. Your weight stays more centered between your legs, instead of centered on one or other. That is what kills followthrough. If you are balanced and centered on the front leg, you pivot freely.

 

[NSDallin]

I used to have a big problem with this because i would plant my front foot so hard. Winter came, and i could no longer plant my foot hard in the snow without falling. I had no choice but to use my core and chest muscles to throw the disc, rather than the transfer of power forward to my front foot. I easily gained 50 feet on my drives once the snow melted because my form was on point and i no longer got that soreness at the top on my leg/ hip area. its all about form and smoothness.

one downside tho is i did for a time roll my discs over a lot due to this for change in power. With practice i learned to throw with hyzer and not roll my wrist. problem solved.

 

[fasteddy8170]

That's interesting NSDallin. It very well could be I'm stressing that front leg without noticing it. The thing is I'm only 175lbs. and I'm not throwing very hard. In addition I have fairly muscular legs that should be able to handle the force I'm using. It's like I have some weird geometry going on or something--just like was happening with my side hurting a few days ago.

I'll be posting a video showing what was going on once it uploads to YouTube. Even in my example throwing in my kitchen the upper leg started to bother me. And I was throwing like 10 percent.

 

[fasteddy8170]

Video of me explaining leg pain from forehand and doing door frame drill again--I have to remember that it's the hip that goes forward, not the butt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peF6rL9LibI&feature=youtu.be

 

[NSDallin]

That's interesting NSDallin. It very well could be I'm stressing that front leg without noticing it. The thing is I'm only 175lbs. and I'm not throwing very hard. In addition I have fairly muscular legs that should be able to handle the force I'm using. It's like I have some weird geometry going on or something--just like was happening with my side hurting a few days ago.

I'll be posting a video showing what was going on once it uploads to YouTube. Even in my example throwing in my kitchen the upper leg started to bother me. And I was throwing like 10 percent.

i honestly think it has something to do with having previously muscular quads, then throwing forehand with all the weight on your front foot. The strength of the quad stresses the hip flexor extra somehow.
I say this because i was a soccer player all my life with very strong quads and leg muscles. Also right around 160-170 lbs and in good shape and like i said before, i had a similar problem when i started throwing forehands.

Id say just throw less stable discs and try to be smooth with your throw and less jerky. also focus on staying light in your feet and not planting hard. Use your core/upper body muscles to throw and not your leg muscles. Maybe practice throwing at a baseball diamond that has dirt so your foot cant grip and plant hard like on concrete. see if this helps.

 

[sidewinder22]

If you watch your BH standstill throws it looks like you are starting in the same position you say is too high in the door frame drill, that should be telling you something. You end up swooping your arm/disc down in your throw(especially relative to your spine) with the disc nose up. I agree with you starting in a lower arm slot. You need to keep your arm swing on the same level plane and relative to your spine. If you watch the very end of the door frame drill pt1 you can see how low my arm/disc is and swings through level and follow through higher.


FH, I plant my front foot about 45-60 degrees from the target. If you were throwing a straight overhand it would ok to plant face on, but since we are throwing sideways, you need something to hit against. Planting face on makes it near impossible to brace properly, your hip will open up and not be able to resist any turn(post to torque against). Open hip is prone to jamming and slamming after release because you aren't controlling your weight during the swing. The rear knee/foot should finish behind the front leg, not around it like you are doing in the vid. In the side view you can see my feet are setup almost perpendicular to the target, then I stride and plant about 45-60 degrees and the rear foot finishes behind the front foot(torque should twist you up in the finish):

 

[fasteddy8170]

I'm a bit confused with the FH stuff. I've been watching this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOECjLjhiTI

In it, Critter Bill and Mark Ellis pretty much plant with their front foot almost straight at the target. Maybe not quite. But only 10 to 15 degrees from straight on. Then in Mike Raley's case, he plants 45 degrees away but his back leg comes around.

In addition, Critter Bill's back doesn't come around too much. Whereas Mark's ends up to the side of his front foot.

How do I sync all that together because it seems to contradict what you're telling me, Sw22?

It should be noted: Jeremy Koling almost plants his front foot straight at the target and his back leg ends up beside his front leg.