Forehand, Stability, and OAT

[Mike C]

(x-post from /r/discgolf)

I've been reading this subreddit for a while, and it has taught me a lot about disc golf. That said, I still have a few questions about forehand shots. It seems like most people recommend overstable discs like the firebird or flick for forehand shots. From my own experience, I agree that these types of discs work better than more neutral discs which tend to just flip over unless you put a ton of hyzer on them. Is this due to OAT, or is it just easier to flip discs using a forehand drive compared to a backhand drive?

Also, I can get my Z buzzz to fly in a nice S curve with just a little fade if I release it on a hyzer angle on a forehand throw. It looks nice when I get it right, but there's a lot of room for error. Do you think something like the hornet would make it easier for a straighter flight with some fade at a flat release angle?

Throwing a forehand with power behind it and keeping a neutral disc flying straight is difficult for a variety of reasons.

One of the biggest reasons for this in my opinion, is that a backhand throw typically generates more spin for the average thrower than a forehand throw.

The more spin you give a disc, the more true it will fly. Increased spin gives a disc the ability to resist wind better and hold any given line longer while resisting the nature of the disc, i.e. a lot of spin can make an overstable disc hold an anhyzer longer or an understable disc fight wind better. This is true for putts and drives.

Forehands are usually going to have more arm speed and less spin than the average backhand. I know that personally I can backhand a putter 350-400' without turn, but I often turn them over trying to flick them past 200'.

Even if you have relatively decent forehand form like I do, flicking neutral putters and mids is difficult to consistently do when you are talking longer distances.

Another reason is that many players naturally flick with some anhyzer and are not aware of what they are doing. Releasing flat or hyzer is a skill every player needs to learn with either throwing style they are using.

OAT also comes into play, as does wrist roll. When I first tried to throw forehand, the natural tendency for my wrist was to roll downwards as I was swinging through the release, which caused me to release the disc with massive amounts of anhyzer.

Regarding OAT, one of the easiest ways to cause it Is by attempting to throw the disc on X release angle, then following through on Y release angle. When I was trying to learn how to forehand a putter, my instincts told me to release with hyzer to help compensate for them turning over and my poor form. If you watch this video you will see me mess up multiple holes because I was attempting to flick with hyzer but following through flat, which caused the putters to come out with OAT and wobble. On two holes, 4 and 6 I believe, I follow through cleanly and I flick the putter without turn over 200'. So no matter what angle you are throwing on, you need to keep that angle throughout your throw or risk causing OAT. If you watch this other video you can see me deuce a 350' hole with putter flicks (#13). Pay attention to the drive, notice how I am throwing it relatively flat rather than hyzer, yet it still held true because I kept it on the same plane during the throwing motion. Also note the short reachback, which reduces the amount of arm speed in the throw which helps stabilize the disc. This is the reachback I use when flicking putters for upshots.

All of this applies to mids. I have flicked some neutral mids 300-330' (Axis, Buzz, seasoned Roc) yet typically disc up to a driver above 250' for consistency.

Carrying some overstable discs to have consistent and reliable forehand options (Especially in a headwind) is a smart move. Don't get too hung up on form that you limit your options. However, it is critical to work with neutral discs and slow discs if you want to have a good forehand. There is nothing terribly difficult about shaping basic forehand shots (hyzer, flat and anhyzer) under 100' with a neutral putter, under 200' with a mid, and under 300' with a neutral driver. Just know that sometimes you should throw the overstable disc (Wind, not throwing good that day, need a low skip shot, need a flex shot). They have their place. Practice with the neutral and even understable stuff to hone your form, but just know that because you flicked a buzz 250' on a rope one time doesn't mean you will do it every time.

Lastly I have an old forehand tips video I made that might explain things better than this wall of text does.

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Any thoughts? Feel this is true?

 

[BirdieMachine]

I agree with everything but my forehand sucks, though I dont practice it hardly at all.

I do think next season I will force myself to throw forehands to make it more reliable. Maybe throw two discs a hole, one backhand and one forehand.

 

[Fraser]

Nice post Mike. Your thoughts on the subject mirror my own. I'm a FH dominant player that maxes out around 400' and a controlled distance of 350'. I also echo the struggles with getting putters and mids out to distances that can be relatively easy with a BH. The key being the amount of spin you can generate. When I'm about to make a FH throw, I always hold the disc perpendicular to the ground and try to slap the rim into my forearm a few times to loosen the wrist as I'm getting ready to throw. This helps me in generating more spin at the hit to help the disc maintain flight for a longer period of time.

Following through on the same plane is also extremely critical. Putters, mids and neutral-US drivers will reinforce proper follow through. If they are turning over, the follow through was more than likely the culprit. Having a much higher arm-speed to spin ratio will also cause a lot of errant throws.

FH'ing putters is what separates me from most of the people in my area. Being able to FH a low-line, 100'+ shot straight at the basket with nothing more than the flick of the wrist is a pretty awesome feeling.

OS discs do have their place but the one place they shouldn't be used is as a crutch for poor form. If you want to develop a FH to use in all aspects of your game, you need to be able to control those slow, neutral discs.

 

[Jax11]

Mike, you brought up some excellent and valid points.

I throw primarily FH and like to think my form is pretty clean. I flick Eagle-L's to 320' on crisp hyzer flip lines a day to day basis and can hit ~380' with them on open distance lines. I have thrown 450'+ on my best throws and can regularly hit 420' with distance drivers. Despite this, I struggle to find consistency with putter mid-range flicks farther than 200' On my best days I can get Buzzz's out to 320', but on a bad day I will flip them trying to throw 275'. The follow-through point makes a lot of sense and I will be paying more attention to that leading into next season and throughout the winter.

These consistency issues also amplify when I am trying to hit a specific line in the woods. I defaulted to throwing a beat to crap 10x Eagle-L for tight tunnels and other short touch shots just because of the improved consistency in hitting lines. Consistent shaped lines with putters and mids its definitely something I want to get better at for next season.

The one key I have found that helps me to clean up my mid and putter flicks is that I hold the disc as loosely as possible in my grip. I know I likely tighten down right at the hit. I would guess the loose grip helps keep my arm relaxed and slow, so that spin dominates the throw.

 

[tonyroberts]

Thanks for the tips. My FH is wildly inconsistent and only used when there's no other choice. I've been trying to practice FH shots, but I never know whether the shot is going to fly or roll. Maybe getting comfortable throwing the slower, neutral plastic you suggest is the answer. I'll give it a try.

 

[Fraser]

Jax11, I think what you are describing is probably a follow-through issue. I can get mids past 300' as well but it takes a lot more effort and control to do it consistently. It is easier to disc up for those longer range throws (as well as not needing as much power). However, once you can consistently throw those slower discs for distance-placement, shaping lines in the forests becomes a lot easier.

Last year when I rebuilt my FH, the disc that taught me the most was a Comet. I hated it at the start. Couldn't FH it to save my life. Gave my first one away to a friend that I got extremely ticked off at (his first FH throw with it was perfect and he hates to FH anything, although he's good at it). I bought another one a month later, determined to make it work. I figured out how to make it fly and it translated to being able to throw everything in my bag better. That friend and I still have our "Comet-Only Competitions" every now and then, even in 30mph winds. I don't bag the Comet anymore (Tangent is easier for me to range and flies similarly) but I still love that mold.

Also, your mention of keeping the disc loose in your grip is something that I do as well. I do think it important to keep your body loose throughout the entire throw but as with a BH, having a firm "pinch-point" at the hit is very important in producing spin.

 

[Fraser]

Thanks for the tips. My FH is wildly inconsistent and only used when there's no other choice. I've been trying to practice FH shots, but I never know whether the shot is going to fly or roll. Maybe getting comfortable throwing the slower, neutral plastic you suggest is the answer. I'll give it a try.

The thing that slower and neutral discs teach very well is throwing with spin and not power. The less arm-strength you use, the more likely the result will be better. The principles of fast acceleration and a smooth motion without using strength (strong-arming) in a BH throw are the same for throwing a consistent FH.

 

[Jax11]

The thing that slower and neutral discs teach very well is throwing with spin and not power. The less arm-strength you use, the more likely the result will be better. The principles of fast acceleration and a smooth motion without using strength (strong-arming) in a BH throw are the same for throwing a consistent FH.

It is also a lot easier on your body. If you have a nice smooth forehand with an incorporated lower body you can throw for days and not destroy your arm.

Fraser, I agree I do think it is a follow through issue. I like your suggestion of using a Comet, but I can't stand to flick deep(er) rimmed discs. I may work with something like a Core or a Fuse this off season to try and build some consistency.

 

[PMantle]

Another reason is that many players naturally flick with some anhyzer and are not aware of what they are doing. Releasing flat or hyzer is a skill every player needs to learn with either throwing style they are using.

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Any thoughts? Feel this is true?

This is huge IMHO and not mentioned enough. I see people claiming turn over all the time when the throw was an anny to begin with.

 

[HeavyCritters]

Awesome post, Mike.

I have been developing my forehand over the past season and (because of a lot of reading in these forums) have been doing by throwing mostly Valkyries and Vikings flat. I currently have about 225' of max distance, but I have a lot more control and better placement than the guys throwing Forces and Destroyers 300'+.

 

[Fraser]

It is also a lot easier on your body. If you have a nice smooth forehand with an incorporated lower body you can throw for days and not destroy your arm.

Absolutely true. Building momentum with the lower body, transferring your weight at the right time and having a complete follow-through definitely puts a lot less strain on the arm and elbow. Being that I was 37 when I picked this sport up, I have to be very cautious with any damage I do to my body. I don't heal nearly as fast as I used to.

Fraser, I agree I do think it is a follow through issue. I like your suggestion of using a Comet, but I can't stand to flick deep(er) rimmed discs. I may work with something like a Core or a Fuse this off season to try and build some consistency.

Good luck with your trials. Stick with it as I'm sure it will pay dividends in the end. I actually FH mids and putters quite a bit more than drivers now. I've been working on my BH and I'll usually throw BH off the tee unless the shot dictates it. However, my approach game is mostly FH.

This is huge IMHO and not mentioned enough. I see people claiming turn over all the time when the throw was an anny to begin with.

Very true. I find that it is very easy to throw anhyzers and flex-shots FH. Pure hyzers, hyzer-flips and pure turn-overs are a little more difficult. My observations are that since the pull for a hyzer is lower (compared to a BH), it is hard(er) to keep the wing angle pointed downward throughout the throw as well as that your elbow "wants" to be at a 90° angle or less. Maintaining a >90° angle can be pretty tough.

Awesome post, Mike.

I have been developing my forehand over the past season and (because of a lot of reading in these forums) have been doing by throwing mostly Valkyries and Vikings flat. I currently have about 225' of max distance, but I have a lot more control and better placement than the guys throwing Forces and Destroyers 300'+.

That's great! A Valkyrie was the first driver I was able to get past 300' with control. I did start out with the high-speed stuff and torqued them out that far but it really hurt my overall development. It took a while during the rebuild to get back those distances but I got that distance with much slower discs. I can now get ~300' with fairway drivers from a stand-still. Get that lower body involved by getting more weight shift. As long as your releases are smooth, on-plane and relatively OAT-free, the weight shift coupled with a little more spin are probably the only things lacking in getting up to 300' with regularity.

 

[sidewinder22]

Taking OAT and bad mechanics out of the equation, other factors on the difference of BH and FH are rim depth, rim width, grip, leverage, and disc warp. A FH typically undergoes a much faster acceleration over a much shorter distance than a BH which you can reach much further back and gradually accelerate over a longer swing. In a BH grip not only can you grip the opposite side of the disc which gives you more disc pivot(helps generate spin), you can spread the pressure/leverage across more of the disc which also gives you more control of the disc angle. A FH grip doesn't allow you grip the opposite of the disc so the disc pivot is much smaller and it has a much more specific pressure/leverage point on the disc which is usually just one or two fingers on the rim. That makes it harder to control the disc angle throughout the throw and another reason why many favor overstable discs.

This all results in less spin and more disc warping of putters and mids as the rim isn't as solid and even gummy drivers on a FH drive tend to warp. Deep rim depth and shallow width is also more prone to cause late release. If I have to hit a gap FH I'm throwing a driver because it's more like throwing a hammer with a wide rim putting more weight to the outside wing of the disc which makes aiming the momentum easier and gives it more momentum to spring out the grip. The less spin and more warp from the throwing mechanics tend to favor more overstable/faster discs compared to slower/understable for consistency.

*Note, I'm mostly talking about driving FH with solid mechanics, not approaches. Learning to drive FH 300' with putters is great practice, but often not the best shot in golf. I do drive FH with understable drivers on all types of hyzer and turnover lines, but overstable discs are often the more reliable golf shot.

 

[Smigles]

I never managed to get far with a forehand because I always tried to force overstable discs.

Then I started taking my more understable ones ( yes, understable, not even neutral... ) and throwing them like I have been throwing Ultimate discs for 20 years, and now I have a FH that can do nice smooth hyzerflips with understable discs for up to 400 feet without hurting my arm at all.

IMO it's just like the backhand. Of course you can always throw overstable stuff on crazy anhyzers, but it's better to be able to do all sort of shots with all sorts of discs.

 

[ern19]

My FH has gotten a lot better this year by, like Mike said, throwing more slower, neutral discs forehand. Actually in the past couple months, I started copying Mike's signature putter flick, that standstill flip-of-the-wrist shot, to a lot of success. It's been a lifesaver lately when I have a low ceiling where I can't throw the gentle BH hyzer that I usually throw for approaches.

 

[reposado]

Taking OAT and bad mechanics out of the equation, other factors on the difference of BH and FH are rim depth.

This is a huge deal for me. I'm forehand dominant but I can't forehand putters and rarely forehand mids. With a deeper rim, I just can't get the grip i like.

 

[Brodysseus]

Awesome post, Mike.

I have been developing my forehand over the past season and (because of a lot of reading in these forums) have been doing by throwing mostly Valkyries and Vikings flat. I currently have about 225' of max distance, but I have a lot more control and better placement than the guys throwing Forces and Destroyers 300'+.

I love Valks for flicks. I carry a destroyer for when I need the fade or skip, it's windy, or I'm being a FH torque monkey. But when I am on, I throw laser beam flicks with my Valks and they fly great on sweeping hyzers.

 

[xlhammy]

With a deeper rim, I just can't get the grip i like.

Same here. I've been trying to develop a true sidearm, and understand the value of starting with the lower speed discs, but it doesn't seem like I can grip the disc properly to release it with putters and mids. I'm sure combined with release angle and arm mechanics, it magnifies the issue as well.

A few questions though... on a RHBH powergrip, the disc is locked in between the thumb and forefingers. Where's that "lock" point on a sidearm grip? I'm always wondering if I am putting pressure on the disc in the right place with a sidearm grip.

Also, when using a two finger grip behind the rim, is the disc actually pivoting off the outside of the middle finger against the rim? It never feels like I can get the disc gripped at the base of my thumb and forefinger while still keeping the outside of my middle finger against the rim securely. (Hope that makes sense)

I've looked at several resources for grips, etc, and have watched all of the MikeC instructional vids on the subject (he really makes it look effortless, even though I know it's taken a lot of work), but I'm just missing something. All this info makes a lot of sense, but just can't seem to execute it. I'll keep working on it. Thanks in advance!

 

[Fraser]

Same here. I've been trying to develop a true sidearm, and understand the value of starting with the lower speed discs, but it doesn't seem like I can grip the disc properly to release it with putters and mids. I'm sure combined with release angle and arm mechanics, it magnifies the issue as well.

A few questions though... on a RHBH powergrip, the disc is locked in between the thumb and forefingers. Where's that "lock" point on a sidearm grip? I'm always wondering if I am putting pressure on the disc in the right place with a sidearm grip.

Also, when using a two finger grip behind the rim, is the disc actually pivoting off the outside of the middle finger against the rim? It never feels like I can get the disc gripped at the base of my thumb and forefinger while still keeping the outside of my middle finger against the rim securely. (Hope that makes sense)

I've looked at several resources for grips, etc, and have watched all of the MikeC instructional vids on the subject (he really makes it look effortless, even though I know it's taken a lot of work), but I'm just missing something. All this info makes a lot of sense, but just can't seem to execute it. I'll keep working on it. Thanks in advance!

There is a distinct possibility that you are putting too much emphasis on the grip and grip pressure. For me, the pressure that I apply with my thumb and fingers is just enough to keep the disc from flopping around. It just needs to be snug. The pressure points are basically the base of the thumb's pad (at the knuckle) and the outside of the middle finger along the rim on a control grip or the pads of the index and middle fingers on a power grip. What you are trying to do when throwing FH is to create as much swing from an open-wrist position to a closed-wrist position in the shortest amount of time possible. The tighter your grip, the stiffer your wrist will be. With a looser grip, you can get a larger and faster swing than if you are death-gripping the disc. As the disc leaves your hand, the disc will pivot some more between the the last two contact points of your grip, the pad of your thumb on the flightplate and either the side of your middle finger (control grip) or the pad of your middle finger (power grip) on the rim. Your body and arms are only doing their thing to increase momentum. This is where I think you are thinking too much about your grip and grip pressure. Loosening your grip a bit might be all you need to do to be able to throw your mids and putters.

When I throw my mids and putters, especially on finesse shots, I hardly have any pressure on the disc at all. My thumb is only resting on the top of the flight plate to control the release angle and to keep it from falling out of my hand.

With all of this being said, I don't think that there is a specific "lock point" with a FH. The grip is more about feel and trial-and-error to find something that works for you. I could be wrong in everything I've written as it relates to other throwers, but I know what I wrote is what works for me.

 

[Voltron Don]

I will start by saying I am pretty bad at forehand. Before this season I had never even attempted one drive with it and I would only use a forehand shot for get out of trouble situations. This year I decided I would try and learn for holes that basically required the shot.

Everyone kept telling me to use my firebird or similar. I could not use it to save my life, or a teebird, or TL for that matter. The two discs that ended working for me? A Valkyrie and a Glide. The Valk was the first disc I could actually drive forehand. Granted it is only for short holes but, there are holes now that I can park forehand and miss big time backhand.

I even recommend to a beginner I was playing with to try his Valk backhand. He was trying to toss a nuke and some other OS disc all day. His first flick with the Valk was his single longest drive of the day. I tired it just out of frustration because I never thought it would work since it wasn't overstable like everyone was telling me to throw. When that thing launched out flat and took off with no flutter at all I was amazed. Now I'm only throwing it and working on getting a little bit more distance at a time. Once I get to a decent place then I will mix in other discs.

 

[xlhammy]

Thanks Fraser and Voltron Don.... good suggestions which I will incorporate into my field work. Valks were suggested by a friend of mine also since they are so versatile, so I've picked up a couple recently to test out.