Categorizing release angle ranges

[Sheep]

 

[RowingBoats]

I'll watch the linked vids. Is bending the elbow less during the power pocket a good cue? Some of what you said seems like that could help with. I've thought before about bending the elbow to come in tight (staying tight for the rotation) to the chest but I might be over doing that.

I was going to ask how you conceptualize the power pocket actually. Because it sort of seems like you might be trying to get into that shape with some kind of deliberate intention.

All of this is somewhat related, and if you start playing with that 'lat' video concept, play with this too: "Don't try to get into the powerpocket, it is incidental."

Once you really start feeling your arm as a heavy ass bat, you can generate some serious, serious force so also be careful with this. I don't recommend going full effort until you feel really confident that you are not going to hurt yourself. But, see what happens. See what happens if you put some effort into trying to keep your arm straight. Once you start generating REAL force, the power pocket shape just happens, even if you are fighting against it.

You dont actually want to fight it in the real swing but you also do not want to make it happen through any means other than...it being only thing your arm can possibly do.

 

[RowingBoats]

Yeah I've seen that SW video top down showing the wide rail disc path. Wish it was easier to film with multiple views, hah.

I really do feel like the topic being discussed here is like, in your lap man. I can see that you do understand a fair bit about the swing, its just happening late and inefficiently. I feel like you could figure this out in literally one field session and that you will be pretty friggin excited when you feel how much easier it makes some things.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I'm actually not consciously trying to rotate my hips. I was at first so I might have some bad muscle memory but I liked Leon's explanation of the brace force automatically causing the front hip to get snapped back when bracing correctly so I decided to try not thinking about it for a while. I need to re-watch that spin doctor vid though, it's been a while since I've seen it.

I think this is the one where Leon gives his view:

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I really do feel like the topic being discussed here is like, in your lap man. I can see that you do understand a fair bit about the swing, its just happening late and inefficiently. I feel like you could figure this out in literally one field session and that you will be pretty friggin excited when you feel how much easier it makes some things.

I'm usually able to make changes pretty quick, probably partially becomes my form doesn't have years of muscle memory but that's also why I'm trying to really nail things down asap before things calcify.

Before seeing some of these comments there was a gap in the rain so I ran out to set up the net and throw some powerful shots mostly just with the cue of driving the elbow sooner (to avoid lag induced collapse) and trying to not rotate too much too soon, and I think it helped me break into the 60's mph more often, but I don't have any power data before this, but breaking 60 wasn't easy so I probably wasn't doing it often before. I'll definitely do lower power work too but first chance to really chuck this thing, lol. Some of the launch angles are a bit low because I don't want to miss the net.

I just need to figure out what other cues to work on (still need to watch and rewatch some of the linked vids though), maybe not bending the elbow into the chest as much, and trying to delay rotation and just focus on the arm. Interestingly, overthrow just released a video that was pretty interesting on this about actually needing to arm-muscle the disc. I think part of my collapse problem set in because of earlier work on trying to not muscle the arm too much and to use more hips and coiling but that led to rotating too much too soon with arm lag collapsing the shoulder angle.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I was going to ask how you conceptualize the power pocket actually. Because it sort of seems like you might be trying to get into that shape with some kind of deliberate intention.

I've experimented with multiple things. When I first tried wide narrow wide, I really exaggerated it and actually tried to think about yanking the disc into my chest but imagining it being forced to redirect even harder from that motion to whip back out.

Then I tried learning to coil without extending the elbow so I could delay the elbow extension longer and not finish it too soon, and I noticed when doing that, that as I started to uncoil, it felt like the elbow just naturally would bend to form the power pocket.

Then I saw from a Holyn Handley IG reel the advice to hunch the shoulder forward to make more space, and that really helped me start feeling more pull from the back and now that's where most of my soreness is, near the shoulder blade which I think is good vs my arm being more sore. I try to just set the shoulder hunch forward with how I hold the disc initially so the muscle memory of it will carry into the power pocket.

But now, I'm thinking about testing just driving the elbow wide-forward and not actively trying to bring the disc close to the chest because it will already come close enough on it's own from driving the elbow wide-forward and that will probably help avoid the shoulder collapse.

 

[RowingBoats]

I've experimented with multiple things. When I first tried wide narrow wide, I really exaggerated it and actually tried to think about yanking the disc into my chest but imagining it being forced to redirect even harder from that motion to whip back out.

Then I tried learning to coil without extending the elbow so I could delay the elbow extension longer and not finish it too soon, and I noticed when doing that, that as I started to uncoil, it felt like the elbow just naturally would bend to form the power pocket.

Then I saw from a Holyn Handley IG reel the advice to hunch the shoulder forward to make more space, and that really helped me start feeling more pull from the back and now that's where most of my soreness is, near the shoulder blade which I think is good vs my arm being more sore. I try to just set the shoulder hunch forward with how I hold the disc initially so the muscle memory of it will carry into the power pocket.

But now, I'm thinking about testing just driving the elbow wide-forward and not actively trying to bring the disc close to the chest because it will already come close enough on it's own from driving the elbow wide-forward and that will probably help avoid the shoulder collapse.

A lot of this sounds worth exploring for sure

 

[Brychanus]

Play around with the concept in the first vid of this thread, and play with whether you can generate that massive power with a collapsed upper arm angle. Just play with your body and see if anything feels helpful

This isn't completely isolated to helping with rounding, but its a good feeling to cement and understand. And playing with that concept AND rounding does actually demonstrate some interesting things that I think apply very much to your form video.

Can you generate some power after collapsing? Yes, but then you have to rotate a whole lot more and correct for it. There is a much better way.

Latissimus dorsi the king of mass, brace and dingle arms.

Grammar and facts may vary. I am hoping this will fix many of the issues people are having with their form. I am going to go as far as to claim that many of the drills here do not work unless you get some mass in to your swing. HUB and SW22 have demonstrated many times how easy it is to feel...

www.dgcoursereview.com

Yo that is a GREAT thread I had forgotten.

I'll watch the linked vids. Is bending the elbow less during the power pocket a good cue? Some of what you said seems like that could help with. I've thought before about bending the elbow to come in tight (staying tight for the rotation) to the chest but I might be over doing that.

Yes. If the posture is good enough the hand/disc will tow toward your center on its own. You want your arm to redirect the force back out which is part of "resisting collapse". I found this easier to learn with weighted levers because like the link RB shared there, I wasn't getting much mass or mass of the arm into the move. Let the arm be the thing your lat muscle tows and swings freely

 

[Brychanus]

I've experimented with multiple things. When I first tried wide narrow wide, I really exaggerated it and actually tried to think about yanking the disc into my chest but imagining it being forced to redirect even harder from that motion to whip back out.

Then I tried learning to coil without extending the elbow so I could delay the elbow extension longer and not finish it too soon, and I noticed when doing that, that as I started to uncoil, it felt like the elbow just naturally would bend to form the power pocket.

Then I saw from a Holyn Handley IG reel the advice to hunch the shoulder forward to make more space, and that really helped me start feeling more pull from the back and now that's where most of my soreness is, near the shoulder blade which I think is good vs my arm being more sore. I try to just set the shoulder hunch forward with how I hold the disc initially so the muscle memory of it will carry into the power pocket.

But now, I'm thinking about testing just driving the elbow wide-forward and not actively trying to bring the disc close to the chest because it will already come close enough on it's own from driving the elbow wide-forward and that will probably help avoid the shoulder collapse.

Agree exploring is good.

IMO/experience people will have different views on the role of the shoulder/scapular area. In general I tend to think/observe that, just like you want big muscle groups in the legs bearing a lot of the load, you want big muscles groups in the upper body like the lats to be bearing the load. You need to develop better side bend to get the best separation and power potential and space to swing. You need better hip and leg action to optimize those same things and get a more powerful, balanced, and abrupt shift braced very well against the ground.

Creating space to swing is kind of part of where the coaching/learning art comes in. I would say you can overcook pretty much anything, but most people have to exaggerate things to learn them.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@RowingBoats At 14:13 is an example of worse rounding in my mind

Collapsed PLUS elbow down and a narrow reach back compared to initially a wider reach back but then collapse but with the elbow up and then reaching something closer to a typical power pocket. This example seems like it's further from being fixed and would be harder to fix. He'd prob kick my ass in a scoring round tho

 

[Nick Carroll]

Can you show me a pro throwing far af and collapsing their upper arm angle?

Rebecca Cox has the worst rounding of any pro (that I've seen), though she's working on it. Drew Gibson has done that a few times that I've seen in his throw, and one of the pics in the Fundamentals of Backhand Form pdf. (originally sourced from these forums) It's not common, but it does happen, if briefly. I don't think it's causing harm or impingement in these cases, given these pros have been doing it for so long. I do think in the case of Cox she's probably incurred some harm due to it, since it's so severe.

 

[Brychanus]

I'm usually able to make changes pretty quick, probably partially becomes my form doesn't have years of muscle memory but that's also why I'm trying to really nail things down asap before things calcify.

Before seeing some of these comments there was a gap in the rain so I ran out to set up the net and throw some powerful shots mostly just with the cue of driving the elbow sooner (to avoid lag induced collapse) and trying to not rotate too much too soon, and I think it helped me break into the 60's mph more often, but I don't have any power data before this, but breaking 60 wasn't easy so I probably wasn't doing it often before. I'll definitely do lower power work too but first chance to really chuck this thing, lol. Some of the launch angles are a bit low because I don't want to miss the net.

I just need to figure out what other cues to work on (still need to watch and rewatch some of the linked vids though), maybe not bending the elbow into the chest as much, and trying to delay rotation and just focus on the arm. Interestingly, overthrow just released a video that was pretty interesting on this about actually needing to arm-muscle the disc. I think part of my collapse problem set in because of earlier work on trying to not muscle the arm too much and to use more hips and coiling but that led to rotating too much too soon with arm lag collapsing the shoulder angle.

View attachment 331328View attachment 331329

Yes, the arm is involved. You want loose arm, but it still needs to act/react to redirect the momentum in sequence.

This was why lever training has worked for that problem for me and others without needing to micromanage (most of) it:


I think you are going to benefit from that. Also sometime soon in your process, you very much would benefit from fixing the posture, side bend, and balance over the drive step/hip action. Most people who don't take that seriously either never fix it, or have a hell of a time when they come back around to try.

Quick anecdote inspired by your rounder dude at the Polecat Championships. I play with this 22y/o guy who has a collapsing front shoulder, throws without a tilted axis, and uses a compact backswing like Seppo Paju, but saws his throws off more than Paju due to the collapse. On the other hand, he's relatively balanced, quick, and coordinated. He commits his momentum down the tee very well using more of a Gossage-like gallop. He measures somewhat reliably around your data/armspeed. Just goes to show you can hit on a few principles and get partway there. I usually keep my mouth shut about form unless asked. He started to report some issues with his hips and working on some of the above has helped him. But I suspect he will probably not gain much more distance without fixing the collapse, and he's leaving some on the table throwing without a tilted axis. He is finding it hard to fix after spending several years throwing otherwise, but possible by trying one thing at a time.

 

[Brychanus]

Rebecca Cox has the worst rounding of any pro (that I've seen), though she's working on it. Drew Gibson has done that a few times that I've seen in his throw, and one of the pics in the Fundamentals of Backhand Form pdf. (originally sourced from these forums) It's not common, but it does happen, if briefly. I don't think it's causing harm or impingement in these cases, given these pros have been doing it for so long. I do think in the case of Cox she's probably incurred some harm due to it, since it's so severe.

One thing that reminded me of - collapsing in any joint is not a 2D problem - some people can still commit quite a bit of leverage and force if one dimension buckles a bit and the rest is working well enough. I think you see examples of that in pitching and batting too. Gibson comes in with so much force and momentum that some of his throws seem like a case in point for what Neil mentioned earlier - when you get to the extremes of any move, you're pushing up against the limits. Most of us just crash and burn well short of where Gibson is.

 

[Nick Carroll]

I don't have much to offer in this thread but I respect the OP's desire to categorize and experiment with different hyzer angles. I think there's more value in learning the "feel" of those angles, as one aspect out of many, and working your way through the different aspects of the throw. As someone who super easily over analyzes everything, I can only agree loudly that is too easy to do for a lot of us, which is probably why so many on this forum are quick to caution. A lot of these people got very good either because, and to some extent despite, their ability to overanalyze.

 

[Nick Carroll]

One thing that reminded me of - collapsing in any joint is not a 2D problem - some people can still commit quite a bit of leverage and force if one dimension buckles a bit and the rest is working well enough. I think you see examples of that in pitching and batting too. Gibson comes in with so much force and momentum that some of his throws seem like a case in point for what Neil mentioned earlier - when you get to the extremes of any move, you're pushing up against the limits. Most of us just crash and burn well short of where Gibson is.

I see a lot of people playing regular golf and baseball who do the collapsed upper arm against the shoulder, so I do think to some extent, hitting a certain point where the arm just won't go any further - so long as no harm is done - is probably not as bad. We talk about losing some of the kinetic energy, momentum, whatever, during the swing, but it may not be so dramatic a difference between, say, a 90 degree angle, and some form of collapsed angle (dunno, 75 degrees maybe). I'd definitely let more knowledgeable people hash that out, but it's weird how often I see that in other sports. At least the 2 I mentioned.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Here's an example of a collapsed upper arm to shoulder from someone swinging a bat. No idea who this is, but isn't that weird? Maybe it's just how it's done, but man, it makes my shoulder sore just looking at it!

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Drew Gibson has done that a few times that I've seen in his throw, and one of the pics in the Fundamentals of Backhand Form pdf.

Most of us just crash and burn well short of where Gibson is.

That's interesting, yeah maybe Drew can handle collapsing to 77 degrees without it having a big negative effect but most players who get to that point would probably collapse further, and maybe Drew's absolute biggest bombs are the ones where he engaged the resistance to collapse sooner and prevents that from happening.

But this to me makes me think that if you get a very minor collapse that you recover from you probably lose some power but it's not suddenly broken the whole system until a certain threshold where it all goes to shit.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Yeah I think that 90 degree to 77 degree difference probably doesn't matter so much if everything else is good, which is likely the case with Drew. And it may just be that he does it rarely, or the few times he does it are accidental or him overdoing it. Like we talk about form break down if you get close to 100% power/effort/whatever. Maybe what we're seeing is that, but he has enough integrity everywhere else that the impact is negligible.

The problem with someone like me who does that is, a lot of other things are wrong, so there's an additive effect. My shoulders may not be rotated enough, so the upper arm compensates. Or maybe the shoulders are good, but the upper arm goes too far, and it throws the disc off the intended line. Every throw is different, but the goal should be to simplify and economize the throw as much as possible, so it's more effective. And hopefully we can keep working on the bad form elements.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Here's an example of a collapsed upper arm to shoulder from someone swinging a bat. No idea who this is, but isn't that weird? Maybe it's just how it's done, but man, it makes my shoulder sore just looking at it!

View attachment 331332

This is the only baseball content I've seen so I wouldn't know

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Yes, the arm is involved. You want loose arm, but it still needs to act/react to redirect the momentum in sequence.

This was why lever training has worked for that problem for me and others without needing to micromanage (most of) it:


I think you are going to benefit from that. Also sometime soon in your process, you very much would benefit from fixing the posture, side bend, and balance over the drive step/hip action. Most people who don't take that seriously either never fix it, or have a hell of a time when they come back around to try.

Quick anecdote inspired by your rounder dude at the Polecat Championships. I play with this 22y/o guy who has a collapsing front shoulder, throws without a tilted axis, and uses a compact backswing like Seppo Paju, but saws his throws off more than Paju due to the collapse. On the other hand, he's relatively balanced, quick, and coordinated. He commits his momentum down the tee very well using more of a Gossage-like gallop. He measures somewhat reliably around your data/armspeed. Just goes to show you can hit on a few principles and get partway there. I usually keep my mouth shut about form unless asked. He started to report some issues with his hips and working on some of the above has helped him. But I suspect he will probably not gain much more distance without fixing the collapse, and he's leaving some on the table throwing without a tilted axis. He is finding it hard to fix after spending several years throwing otherwise, but possible by trying one thing at a time.

Just finished the video, good one.

you very much would benefit from fixing the posture, side bend, and balance over the drive step/hip action.

What do I need to look into / watch for this? I don't have a clear idea what the issue / fix is from just this.