Categorizing release angle ranges

[Sheep]

Regarding the topic of Tech Disc for just a minute, I can't help wondering if this is a technology that will solve a longstanding problem, or if it's a technology is search of a problem to solve.

I realize this risks an "old man shakes fist at sky" moment - but the sport has existed for years, and players have learned and improved,without this data. I'm open to the idea that having this data could speed improvement, make form development more efficient, etc. Speed guns, computer simulators, the Iron Byron have all found their place in modern sports - and they were probably looked at skeptically when they first arrived. Maybe this will become a standard tool for teaching and coaching disc golf. Or it will find its niche in the accessories market (Flight Towel, Rip it Grip). Maybe it will be picked up by manufacturers, or the PDGA (another acquisition?). Or maybe its just a fad. Time will tell.

It's going to take time before we find actual uses for them.

I see uses for them, but for the current moment, they are more of a toy and gimmick for people to have fun with.

It *will* become a useful teaching aid.

 

[Sheep]

Are you saying I'm "drastically" rounding

yes

 

[Sheep]

Because it's not just about rounding. As an abstraction, take most specific form issues and compare it to something approximating an ideal; the further from the ideal it is, the more severe the issue typically is. I'm not saying any amount of rounding is acceptable enough to be ignored, but the closer it is to the ideal the closer to acceptable it becomes.

For some people, rounding is the primary way they throw, pulling the disc behind their side almost, whereas other people, it's something that is creeping into a throw form that is not primarily built upon rounding. The former will generally be much harder to fix.

My rounding issue comes back mostly when I go for max power because going for max power is a common time when a breakdown in form occurs, but also, because after mostly fixing it previously, I started testing out and tweaking other stuff too soon before the fix was deeply ingrained. Based on this feedback though, when I played today I worked on rounding on every throw and I'll focus on it longer before moving on this time to let it sink in more deeply.

Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kennets]

I doubt my form is going to drastically change even though I've been playing for 4.5 months because I skipped the initial phase of letting whatever natural bad form you start with to set in since I watched form videos on day 1, so I was already heading in the right direction from the start. I've gotten plenty of good form advice here but the drastic suggestions have dried up and it's mostly optimizing things it seems. If find out about anything drastic, I'll start working on it immediately.

"Optimizing minor things" can drastically improve you form, make no mistake.
A efficient brace/good shift, timing, posture, getting leverage into the swing etc.

All those things can be groundbreaking and make you rethink stuff you thought you knew.

 

[RowingBoats]

Because it's not just about rounding. As an abstraction, take most specific form issues and compare it to something approximating an ideal; the further from the ideal it is, the more severe the issue typically is. I'm not saying any amount of rounding is acceptable enough to be ignored, but the closer it is to the ideal the closer to acceptable it becomes.

For some people, rounding is the primary way they throw, pulling the disc behind their side almost, whereas other people, it's something that is creeping into a throw form that is not primarily built upon rounding. The former will generally be much harder to fix.

My rounding issue comes back mostly when I go for max power because going for max power is a common time when a breakdown in form occurs, but also, because after mostly fixing it previously, I started testing out and tweaking other stuff too soon before the fix was deeply ingrained. Based on this feedback though, when I played today I worked on rounding on every throw and I'll focus on it longer before moving on this time to let it sink in more deeply.


What are you curious about specifically?

I speak only from my own experience, but my experience would lead me to tell you that you are wrong here. I'm not saying this to diss your form either man, I want you to reach your goals.

I can tell you that from my perspective you are wildly belittling the impact of changes that might be visibly minor to the uninitiated, but are substantial. I cannot collapse my upper arm without knowing and feeling that my kinetic chain has been severed. Its a qualitative, not quantitative, difference in the swing in my mind.

 

[ChrisinFL]

I just don't want people to reply as if I'm a some player who is rounding extremely and throwing huge swooping nose up air bounces into the trees instead of discussing this topic at a level beyond that. Anytime I post my form, I hope someone will find something major I need to fix so I can fix it ASAP, but lately in dedicated form review threads, I've been receiving advice that, when I work on, I experience it as a form tweak and not a 'drastic' change akin to an overhaul.

I can't believe you got that good that fast - 400' feet in 4 months. At 9 months, I have not reached 300' yet. I am 54 years old. Are you young, with major athletic background?

 

[Sheep]

I can't believe you got that good that fast - 400' feet in 4 months. At 9 months, I have not reached 300' yet. I am 54 years old. Are you young, with major athletic background?

It's doable.

I explain there are 2 methods to throwing.

The Yeeet and skeet, let it eat.

And the slow and steady.

While the yeet method results in amazing distance at the start, you have no control whatsoever, and until you learn to control it, all you got is full power shots, and generally weird or bad form.
Those players either figure it out or hurt themselves.

Then there is the slow and steady, like SW teaches and Brychanus. Build it up, vs tear it down and unlearn to learn and unlearn to learn.

Easier to just build, but takes longer to get distance.

I've met a lot of yeet players who are newer and their form isn't terrible, but its very muscle driven, or very high spin and throw driven. They end up hurting themselves a lot of times.

I threw 400 feet for a long time when I started out. But I kept blowing my bad shoulder out cause I was muscling it. Despite it being an athletic throw, it was still 90% arm. Now I'm happy if I throw 350-400.

I can get other people to throw 500+
But, my discs go 300 feet really really quick then some invisible field knocks them down.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

"Optimizing minor things" can drastically improve you form, make no mistake.
A efficient brace/good shift, timing, posture, getting leverage into the swing etc.

All those things can be groundbreaking and make you rethink stuff you thought you knew.

I agree and love trying to optimize. I was just making the point that an optimization tweak isn't a drastic change to form, but a small change can definitely have a big effect. Like if you compare before and after if someone made a drastic form change, it usually stands out pretty clearly versus if they optimize things, the core of their form and style remains.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I speak only from my own experience, but my experience would lead me to tell you that you are wrong here. I'm not saying this to diss your form either man, I want you to reach your goals.

I can tell you that from my perspective you are wildly belittling the impact of changes that might be visibly minor to the uninitiated, but are substantial. I cannot collapse my upper arm without knowing and feeling that my kinetic chain has been severed. Its a qualitative, not quantitative, difference in the swing in my mind.

I totally agree that a small physical form change can have a drastic effect. But in that case the drastic change is on the effect side and not the amount of physical form that changed.

We probably agree on more things than it seems but have different subjective meanings to some words and draw more or less distinctions in some places.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I can't believe you got that good that fast - 400' feet in 4 months. At 9 months, I have not reached 300' yet. I am 54 years old. Are you young, with major athletic background

Yeah 35 and some racket sports while growing up, bikes, skateboard, competitive gaming, lol.

Then I got into other sports later on and always loved going all in and trying to improve quick, so that process is familiar and fun. I did it with rock climbing a while ago and pickleball over the last year. I still play pickleball but swapped climbing for dg because I can play a lot of dg and a lot of pickleball, but with climbing I had to deduct time from both to get enough rest.

 

[Kennets]

I agree and love trying to optimize. I was just making the point that an optimization tweak isn't a drastic change to form, but a small change can definitely have a big effect. Like if you compare before and after if someone made a drastic form change, it usually stands out pretty clearly versus if they optimize things, the core of their form and style remains.

This might come off wrong, since English isn't my first language. (My 5 year old daughter speaks better than I do lol).

Minor change can, in my opinion, make drastically changes to ones form.

I'm no form guru and can't see shit on my phone, but improving your timing, bracing, swing and coiling against the rear hip could "drastically" change your form and how it looks. But that's the case for A LOT of players. And as said, I'm no form guru.

You do you man! Hope you'll enjoy the journey!

 

[RowingBoats]

I totally agree that a small physical form change can have a drastic effect. But in that case the drastic change is on the effect side and not the amount of physical form that changed.

We probably agree on more things than it seems but have different subjective meanings to some words and draw more or less distinctions in some places.

Probably, and I'm not even here to argue lol. I just know some of the weird hard to foresee pitfalls here and have fun talking about it. It is extremely easy to fall into the mentality that your form 'looks' almost right. I did it a lot. A few things clicked and I rapidly understood how to snap a disc with true power. It is an EXTREMELY simple thing once you get out of your own way.

This thread is both thoroughly derailed, and not. The reason people are talking about how minor visible change can have dramatic impact isn't, imo, purely that it can result in longer flights. It CHANGES your entire mentality about the goal of your swing, and I do think you still have at least one fundamental change in this regard to make.

Once you really do get where and how you are required to snap the shit out of a disc, it will change more than how you think of the swing itself. It will change how you envision hitting a line, and to relate it to this thread, hyzer angle. This becomes natural and not robotic. I can absolutely see how this might feel like an inconsistent thing to grind out if you are still prone to rounding in particular.

I do think you have the motivation to progress and I mean it when I say that Im curious what you end up saying a year from now Apply your intense motivation to the basics though. If you were willing to go THIS hard on hyzer angle categories, I can appreciate the vigor, but I agree with earlier comments. Fix the fundamental aspects of your form and then see what you want to work on, and don't be attached to believing you have already done this.

Maybe other people disagree but with collapsing the upper arm in particular, to me that is an on/off binary problem. You will NOT be able to do it when throwing with the correct overall paradigm. Doing so will eff everything up. Find a way to leave that behind completely and see how you feel about the swing. You just might find that saying that 'throwing harder introduces rounding' becomes the opposite of the truth. You just might find that the harder you throw correctly, the easier it is, because there is no other place your arm can possibly go.

/edit: I dont mean to imply that it is truly easy for everyone. I do believe that if you are athletic, the core swing is very easy. I am not trying to belittle difficulties or imply that I instantly progressed, but if you have all of the pieces in mind, and let your own personal body do its thing, it is easier than it seems like it should be in the end.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Probably, and I'm not even here to argue lol. I just know some of the weird hard to foresee pitfalls here and have fun talking about it. It is extremely easy to fall into the mentality that your form 'looks' almost right. I did it a lot. A few things clicked and I rapidly understood how to snap a disc with true power. It is an EXTREMELY simple thing once you get out of your own way.

This thread is both thoroughly derailed, and not. The reason people are talking about how minor visible change can have dramatic impact isn't, imo, purely that it can result in longer flights. It CHANGES your entire mentality about the goal of your swing, and I do think you still have at least one fundamental change in this regard to make.

Once you really do get where and how you are required to snap the shit out of a disc, it will change more than how you think of the swing itself. It will change how you envision hitting a line, and to relate it to this thread, hyzer angle. This becomes natural and not robotic. I can absolutely see how this might feel like an inconsistent thing to grind out if you are still prone to rounding in particular.

I do think you have the motivation to progress and I mean it when I say that Im curious what you end up saying a year from now Apply your intense motivation to the basics though. If you were willing to go THIS hard on hyzer angle categories, I can appreciate the vigor, but I agree with earlier comments. Fix the fundamental aspects of your form and then see what you want to work on, and don't be attached to believing you have already done this.

Maybe other people disagree but with collapsing the upper arm in particular, to me that is an on/off binary problem. You will NOT be able to do it when throwing with the correct overall paradigm. Doing so will eff everything up. Find a way to leave that behind completely and see how you feel about the swing. You just might find that saying that 'throwing harder introduces rounding' becomes the opposite of the truth. You just might find that the harder you throw correctly, the easier it is, because there is no other place your arm can possibly go.

/edit: I dont mean to imply that it is truly easy for everyone. I do believe that if you are athletic, the core swing is very easy. I am not trying to belittle difficulties or imply that I instantly progressed, but if you have all of the pieces in mind, and let your own personal body do its thing, it is easier than it seems like it should be in the end.

Sounds good.

A small clarification though, I didn't say that throwing harder introduces rounding inherently. I was saying that throwing max power is when form break downs often occur. Different breakdowns happen depending on the person, their strengths and weaknesses and what parts of their form are more or less deeply ingrained.

 

[Brychanus]

I'm somehow glad I didn't see this thread until it was 70 posts deep. My, this stirred the pot.

FWIW, and you can take from these comments (inspired by data or anecdotes in coaching) what you will. Some of them were mentioned earlier, and YMMV.

-I would never fault the idea of using tools and learning aids as long as their uses and limits are understood. I mean, I love hammers, clubs, and ropes too.

-A techDisc is a different artifact and is usually thrown with a different goal than a targeted throw (like working with hammers, clubs, and ropes).

-Most pitching coaches use the mantra "you can teach someone to pitch, but you can't teach them to throw." I don't necessarily agree with the second part of that when it comes to disc golf, but I think it's important to realize when you're trying to learn to pitch before you learn to throw. Food for thought.

-For reasons we could state, I think many new players see videos and think of "small changes" as incremental rather than fundamental. Some things do look small, but fundamentally feel and function completely differently than you anticipate if you have not already learned to do them. So yes, they are a fundamentally different throw. Some of those things are evident to me in the form critique of OP, too. Most people who access the core lessons of things like Double Dragon or Turbo Encabulator are surprised at how different it "feels" compared to what they were doing before. That's significant even if some people (understandably) have a hard time seeing the differences on camera. Some players (like me) need a dramatic amount of input to access the lessons in the first place (thanks again, Sidewinder!)

-Speaking to my (over)analytic types: I started making a different kind of progress working with larger athletic motions of the body than getting stuck on details prematurely.

Here, there be anecdotes:
Neil, FWIW over the better part of 2 years Sidewinder, took my aging, poorly levered, top heavy, unathletic, discoordinated, poorly balanced, slightly busted ass from a shoddy 50mph to 60mph "low effort"* repeatable throw.

I coach a bit too now. My last session with a TechDisc enthusiast, it took some convincing that what he needed to do to get out of that common 50mph domain is worry about how his body captures, harnesses, and builds on momentum rather than stare at the angular data coming out of techdisc. He was trying to pitch before he could throw. He regressed quickly when he got obsessed with the individual datapoints. He progressed again when he worked on the momentum game. That's what RB is talking about in the "feels" category, and it is the difference between when I'm meekly tossing a 50mph throw vs. committing a 60mph+ throw.

This part is not an anecdote and is about as fundamental as it gets
There's an idea in systems engineering that you can screw up a process by only tracking and controlling the output variables rather than the latent or generative variables. There's a reason some people got very famous for pointing that out, and a reason I'm cheekily raising it now - now, why would I do that?

Unfortunately, you can't see all of the generative variables on camera, and if you haven't done them, you will not know how they feel until you find them. You might happen upon them in TechDisc sessions. Or maybe you need to get them from somewhere else.

*For the record, I do not confuse "low effort" with unathletic. It became obvious to me entering the winter I had more work to do on my body fundamentals. The upper end of a player's move will always demand rapidly increasing effort near the top of their performance range just like it does in any sport - the ideal is to develop it to be as efficient as possible. Any given player may consider the need to put some work into their body to improve.

 

[RowingBoats]

A small clarification though, I didn't say that throwing harder introduces rounding inherently. I was saying that throwing max power is when form break downs often occur.

"Max power" is a nebulous thing when you apply it to the disc golf swing. I believe what you mean is that when you perform excessive bodily exertion, it messes things up. From my perspective, one of the core fundamental rules that you need to adhere to is banishing this entire mentality completely.

There is absolutely no benefit to just 'trying harder', at least for a long, long while. I throw exclusively standstill shots, and it has been very interesting to progress that swing. I went from noob hyzers to 400' fairly rapidly, and from 400' - 450' much, much slower. It has not required more exertion, it has required less, over time. I don't think I have perfect form, but I also don't know how much more I can eke out of a standstill. I'm 5'7, 135lbs, with tiny hands. Pretty much the worst body type for distance lol. I feel like I am at something of a speed limit, but my body is capable of pretending to throw harder, it just requires that I ruin what actually gives the swing power to feel like Im doing that.

I'm sure you already know this concept, but I do recommend that you fully embrace it. For a good long while, you will just have to understand that throwing fairly far is shockingly easy if you maintain the integrity of your swing. All of these things that seem 'little' or like you are 'close' to looking the same as a pro, matter a lot. People in this thread won't budge on this for a reason

Now, there are levels that I have not reached that do seem to require some rather high levels of exertion. People literally throw 200' farther than I can, but they definitely didn't get there by skipping the clean easy power step of the process. Eventually, I think you can go down that road if you want to find out your true maximum potential, but right now, I'd just think differently about what 'max power' actually means.

 

[Brychanus]

"Max power" is a nebulous thing when you apply it to the disc golf swing. I believe what you mean is that when you perform excessive bodily exertion, it messes things up. From my perspective, one of the core fundamental rules that you need to adhere to is banishing this entire mentality completely.

There is absolutely no benefit to just 'trying harder', at least for a long, long while. I throw exclusively standstill shots, and it has been very interesting to progress that swing. I went from noob hyzers to 400' fairly rapidly, and from 400' - 450' much, much slower. It has not required more exertion, it has required less, over time. I don't think I have perfect form, but I also don't know how much more I can eke out of a standstill. I'm 5'7, 135lbs, with tiny hands. Pretty much the worst body type for distance lol. I feel like I am at something of a speed limit, but my body is capable of pretending to throw harder, it just requires that I ruin what actually gives the swing power to feel like Im doing that.

I'm sure you already know this concept, but I do recommend that you fully embrace it. For a good long while, you will just have to understand that throwing fairly far is shockingly easy if you maintain the integrity of your swing. All of these things that seem 'little' or like you are 'close' to looking the same as a pro, matter a lot. People in this thread won't budge on this for a reason

Now, there are levels that I have not reached that do seem to require some rather high levels of exertion. People literally throw 200' farther than I can, but they definitely didn't get there by skipping the clean easy power step of the process. Eventually, I think you can go down that road if you want to find out your true maximum potential, but right now, I'd just think differently about what 'max power' actually means.

I agree with every part of this, just wanted to mention from our recent exchanges:

I would still point out that there's a reason people like McBeth or Gibson point out you can commit some "violence" to the swing. But you need to remember how well they were moving and for how many years in their prime.

I think there's a reason RB and I can write across the internet about things like committing through the 10 o'clock-ish point and giving it a full send, and I think we're probably talking about more or less the same thing at this point (hint, it's not just his wrestler legs). My bet is that what our best and longest throws have in common is the feeling of committing full body momentum into the shot. My body had almost no concept of that before, and it was mostly muscular effort like weightlifting.

Now, I work on pretty much everything I can to leave that old effort concept behind. I have thrown farther more easily and accurately while getting less hurt. When the winter and kid #2 hit, I was having a lot of trouble making progress outside in the cold (when I can get out at all), and decided to mostly focus on all the weakest points in my body. I stopped doing my old lifts and now do tons of (two dumbbell) weighted walking, multidirectional lunges with pulse dynamics, resistance band training, and athletic club momentum/mobility work. It's doing great things.

I'm definitely not in the 70mph club and have little reason to think I can personally get there, so I can't speak to it firsthand. But all the way up to ~65-68mph, I am willing to bet that Lizotte's move feels pretty easy to him, and what he's talking about at 70mph+ is what happens when the body is starting to feel the limits of the maximum forces it can manage (or could manage at the time of that video, when I think he was still a year out from elbow injury and closing in on 30y/o or so). But it still probably is closer to what RB is talking about than not. Lizotte is on social media sometimes, let's ask!

 

[RowingBoats]

*For the record, I do not confuse "low effort" with unathletic. It became obvious to me entering the winter I had more work to do on my body fundamentals. The upper end of a player's move will always demand rapidly increasing effort near the top of their performance range just like it does in any sport - the ideal is to develop it to be as efficient as possible. Any given player may consider the need to put some work into their body to improve.

Yep, this There is a lot of room for pushing the envelope at the top end, but it seems like a recipe for disaster to go that route too early.

Good to see you again haha seems like you've been away a bit!

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I'm somehow glad I didn't see this thread until it was 70 posts deep. My, this stirred the pot.

FWIW, and you can take from these comments (inspired by data or anecdotes in coaching) what you will. Some of them were mentioned earlier, and YMMV.

-I would never fault the idea of using tools and learning aids as long as their uses and limits are understood. I mean, I love hammers, clubs, and ropes too.

-A techDisc is a different artifact and is usually thrown with a different goal than a targeted throw (like working with hammers, clubs, and ropes).

-Most coaching pitchers use the mantra "you can teach someone to pitch, but you can't teach them to throw." I don't necessarily agree with the second part of that when it comes to disc golf, but I think it's important to realize when you're trying to learn to pitch before you learn to throw. Food for thought.

-For reasons we could state, I think many new players see videos and think of "small changes" as incremental rather than fundamental. Some things do look small, but fundamentally feel and function completely differently than you anticipate if you have not already learned to do them. So yes, they are a fundamentally different throw. Some of those things are evident to me in the form critique of OP, too. Most people who access the core lessons of things like Double Dragon or Turbo Encabulator are surprised at how different it "feels" compared to what they were doing before. That's significant even if some people (understandably) have a hard time seeing the differences on camera.

-Speaking to my (over)analytic types: I started making a different kind of progress working with larger athletic motions of the body than getting stuck on details prematurely.

Here, there be anecdotes:
Neil, FWIW over the better part of 2 years Sidewinder, took my aging, poorly levered, top heavy, unathletic, discoordinated, poorly balanced, slightly busted ass from a shoddy 50mph to 60mph "low effort"* repeatable throw.

I coach a bit too now. My last session with a TechDisc enthusiast, it took some convincing that what he needed to do to get out of that common 50mph domain is worry about how his body captures, harnesses, and builds on momentum rather than stare at the angular data coming out of techdisc. He was trying to pitch before he could throw. He regressed quickly when he got obsessed with the individual datapoints. He progressed again when he worked on the momentum game. That's what RB is talking about in the "feels" category, and it is the difference between I'm meekly tossing a 50mph throw vs. committing a 60mph+ throw.

This part is not an anecdote and is about as fundamental as it gets
There's an idea in systems engineering that you can screw up a process by only tracking and controlling the output variables rather than the latent or generative variables. There's a reason some people got very famous for pointing that out, and a reason I'm cheekily raising it now - now, why would I do that?

Unfortunately, you can't see all of the generative variables on camera, and if you haven't done them, you will not know how they feel until you find them. You might happen upon them in TechDisc sessions. Or maybe you need to get them from somewhere else.

*For the record, I do not confuse "low effort" with unathletic. It became obvious to me entering the winter I had more work to do on my body fundamentals. The upper end of a player's move will always demand rapidly increasing effort just like it does in any sport.

Thanks for the thorough post.

I think it's really hard to bridge the gap between differences in mentality and disposition and to guess how certain approaches or thought processes will affect someone primarily through text.

People who have seen someone suffer from analysis paralysis will understandably be quick to warn that as a pitfall when seeing someone writing with lots of analysis and attention to details, and similarly, if you've seen someone overly focused on tech disc data you'll be quick to warn about that.

I love having the data, and analyzing deeply, but when I go play, I choose my shot and my disc and I throw without hesitation or a lengthy set-up process and I make corrections based on the actual results. I think it's easy for people to imagine someone highly analytical instead being bogged down by the choices and having a lengthy mechanical set-up process to their throw.

I agree about small physical changes in form being able to have drastic effects on how it feels and can have drastic results, but initially that wasn't clearly stated so it seemed like what was being suggested was a visually obvious huge transformation in form.

Also, back on the topic of what constitutes "severe" rounding as opposed to mild or medium, it's still unclear to me where these lines are based on what some have said is "severe". I find it interesting to try to pin things like this down to work towards a more precise understanding. More confusing is that late releases and rotating too early and over rotation can happen without rounding but are also more likely to happen as a result of rounding.

In image one frame 2 and 3 below, it's clear there is some shoulder angle collapse rounding, but the 4th frame to me is proof that there isn't severe rounding in this throw because that position with a non-collapsed power pocket (correct me if I'm wrong) is incredibly difficult and unlikely to be reached if there was severe rounding--the arm could never catch up and become non-collapsed.

 

[RowingBoats]

Thanks for the thorough post.

I think it's really hard to bridge the gap between differences in mentality and disposition and to guess how certain approaches or thought processes will affect someone primarily through text.

People who have seen someone suffer from analysis paralysis will understandably be quick to warn that as a pitfall when seeing someone writing with lots of analysis and attention to details, and similarly, if you've seen someone overly focused on tech disc data you'll be quick to warn about that.

I love having the data, and analyzing deeply, but when I go play, I choose my shot and my disc and I throw without hesitation or a lengthy set-up process and I make corrections based on the actual results. I think it's easy for people to imagine someone highly analytical instead being bogged down by the choices and having a lengthy mechanical set-up process to their throw.

I agree about small physical changes in form being able to have drastic effects on how it feels and can have drastic results, but initially that wasn't clearly stated so it seemed like what was being suggested was a visually obvious huge transformation in form.

Also, back on the topic of what constitutes "severe" rounding as opposed to mild or medium, it's still unclear to me where these lines are based on what some have said is "severe". I find it interesting to try to pin things like this down to work towards a more precise understanding. More confusing is that late releases and rotating too early and over rotation can happen without rounding but are also more likely to happen as a result of rounding.

In image one frame 2 and 3 below, it's clear there is some shoulder angle collapse rounding, but the 4th frame to me is proof that there isn't severe rounding in this throw because that position with a non-collapsed power pocket (correct me if I'm wrong) is incredibly difficult and unlikely to be reached if there was severe rounding--the arm could never catch up and become non-collapsed.

View attachment 331322

The advice I would give, is to go force yourself to not do it at all, and see how it changes your swing. Exaggerate it and never let your upper arm collapse. Start slow with something like the one-leg drill and just concentrate on the reciprocating dingle arm concept with a wide upper arm angle. Actually coil, don't fake it by reaching your arm around your body.

There is a lot to be gained from making sure this part of your swing is sound.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

"Max power" is a nebulous thing when you apply it to the disc golf swing. I believe what you mean is that when you perform excessive bodily exertion, it messes things up. From my perspective, one of the core fundamental rules that you need to adhere to is banishing this entire mentality completely.

There is absolutely no benefit to just 'trying harder', at least for a long, long while. I throw exclusively standstill shots, and it has been very interesting to progress that swing. I went from noob hyzers to 400' fairly rapidly, and from 400' - 450' much, much slower. It has not required more exertion, it has required less, over time. I don't think I have perfect form, but I also don't know how much more I can eke out of a standstill. I'm 5'7, 135lbs, with tiny hands. Pretty much the worst body type for distance lol. I feel like I am at something of a speed limit, but my body is capable of pretending to throw harder, it just requires that I ruin what actually gives the swing power to feel like Im doing that.

I'm sure you already know this concept, but I do recommend that you fully embrace it. For a good long while, you will just have to understand that throwing fairly far is shockingly easy if you maintain the integrity of your swing. All of these things that seem 'little' or like you are 'close' to looking the same as a pro, matter a lot. People in this thread won't budge on this for a reason

Now, there are levels that I have not reached that do seem to require some rather high levels of exertion. People literally throw 200' farther than I can, but they definitely didn't get there by skipping the clean easy power step of the process. Eventually, I think you can go down that road if you want to find out your true maximum potential, but right now, I'd just think differently about what 'max power' actually means.

What I meant is that in pretty much any form in sports, trying with close to 100% effort results in parts of the form worsening, usually quite a bit. I don't think disc golf is some nebulous exception to this. I think it's generally best to cap your effort around 85% at the most to maintain the desired form whether it's a DG throw or a tennis serve. However, I do think occasionally during practice sessions, if you have pretty good form, cranking it up to 95% effort and seeing where you have form breakdowns and then trying to reduce them at that effort can, over time, result in your 85% effort being stronger and more effortless.