Form critique request

[Brychanus]

This is why I'm so hung up on this issue. I can't believe it's so hard to see at this stage a MASSIVE difference in launch angle that is a fraction of a second away from happening.

He's throwing a nearly vertical spike hyzer, like >=70 degree launch angle it seems.



Maybe it's camera angle challenges or differing preferences in how people change their launch angle that's making it so confusing. I started doubting my normal conception of lower shoulder flexion = higher launch angle (if maintained) after seeing those other examples that seemed like ~90 deg shoulder flexion while still throwing high so initially I missed this, but it does seem he is lowering the arm. But this looks more like my normal angle from the back when I throw normal hyzer flips in tunnels so idk how I'm avoiding throwing it high, lol. Anyways, I'm planning to practice resetting my muscle memory to 90 degree flexion as my default ~5 deg launch angle then lower it for higher launch angles going forward.

View attachment 335488

More confusing is how some people have low reach backs even when throwing low launch angles like Clayton Montgomery, this makes me think people who do this are going off plane by increasing shoulder flexion from reachback to power pocket and staying "on plane" is not always the ideal. It's best to learn how to do it and to fix issues from going off plane in a bad way, but for example if you want to really throw nose down the easier way might be to do what Jake H does, low reach back and then crank downwards off plane to bring the nose down. I gotta test it more but that nose-down style is bigger muscles / larger lever style that's probably easier to time and control compared to a small wrist supination flip for example.

Lol nice, I was kind of hoping that's why you picked that one with no context.

So just FWIW there (and by now you can predict I am going to say something about posture) watch ABs overall movement again closely from the rear and forward angles in that round. As he shifts off the rear leg he's also shifting his posture so he can redirect the momentum out of the backswing to the more vertical plane for the spike hyzer. So I do think like we've been talking about you can adjust both components of the arm and the overall shift of the body and its posture more generally. It's why I usually work with people throwing on hyzer/hyzer flip in two camera angles so you can kind of compress the problem into one posture "container" and then adjust it for different shots. Sometimes the arm falls in line. Other times and it sounds like the pros you're talking to focus on the arm. I would say that in either case, always be looking at both what the arm is doing and the broader context of the shift and posture around it since they will usually interact (since the arm is connected to the body).

If you encounter any extreme spike hyzers from side of tee I can mark up part of what I'm talking about there, a little less clear from rear or head of tee usually.

Appreciating our dialogue here dude!

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Lol nice, I was kind of hoping that's why you picked that one with no context.

So just FWIW there (and by now you can predict I am going to say something about posture) watch ABs overall movement again closely from the rear and forward angles in that round. As he shifts off the rear leg he's also shifting his posture so he can redirect the momentum out of the backswing to the more vertical plane for the spike hyzer. So I do think like we've been talking about you can adjust both components of the arm and the overall shift of the body and its posture more generally. It's why I usually work with people throwing on hyzer/hyzer flip in two camera angles so you can kind of compress the problem into one posture "container" and then adjust it for different shots. Sometimes the arm falls in line. Other times and it sounds like the pros you're talking to focus on the arm. I would say that in either case, always be looking at both what the arm is doing and the broader context of the shift and posture around it since they will usually interact (since the arm is connected to the body).

If you encounter any extreme spike hyzers from side of tee I can mark up part of what I'm talking about there, a little less clear from rear or head of tee usually.

Appreciating our dialogue here dude!

Appreciate it too. Yeah I think the lower arm cue helps naturally adjust the posture but I definitely want to see a side-by-side comparison of a power hyzer flip and a power spike hyzer to more clearly see the posture you are talking about.

A grenade could also probably be used, right? I don't remember any side views off the top of my head of grenades or spike hyzers since the coverage is often from behind.

 

[Brychanus]

Appreciate it too. Yeah I think the lower arm cue helps naturally adjust the posture but I definitely want to see a side-by-side comparison of a power hyzer flip and a power spike hyzer to more clearly see the posture you are talking about.

A grenade could also probably be used, right? I don't remember any side views off the top of my head of grenades or spike hyzers since the coverage is often from behind.

yes, sometimes the motion down the tee is very similar, but the posture shifts/corrects moving off the drive step into the plant to guide the shot to the apex. AB is doing a version of that I think.

Grenades could be good if we correct for the little adjustments for grip - can see if there's a good side-on angle of KJUSA

 

[disc-golf-neil]

yes, sometimes the motion down the tee is very similar, but the posture shifts/corrects moving off the drive step into the plant to guide the shot to the apex. AB is doing a version of that I think.

Grenades could be good if we correct for the little adjustments for grip - can see if there's a good side-on angle of KJUSA

back left Eagle grenade view here. Is there a shifting from rightward sidebend to leftward sidebend since leftward sidebend angles the posture more upwards at the hit?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Also, I just did a bunch of medium effort / speed reps w/ a flight towel of keeping my elbow up, ~90 degrees shoulder flexion during power pocket and reach back, and I can already feel more shoulder soreness just from that than when after dozens of 85% power tech disc throws with my normal form. So I think that's probably why I naturally developed muscle memory towards a bit of a lower shoulder flexion angle.

Also, I heard at one point pulling through a bit below the chest is more powerful due to more core muscle recruitment, and you either have to A LOT of internal rotation to get the disc more to the midsection or just lower the shoulder flexion a bit to more easily and comfortably get it there.

 

[Brychanus]

back left Eagle grenade view here. Is there a shifting from rightward sidebend to leftward sidebend since leftward sidebend angles the posture more upwards at the hit?

Yes! You want to sidebend in each direction anyway. It just looks much more subtle in the less aggressive trajectories. That's why you see people here consider it a fundamental part of the swing. A lot of athletes do it without thinking about it. Then there are a lot of athletes with "flat" form, which to me means not doing basically the following:

Watch for it in Wiggins in real time (I find that the stillframes actually make it harder to see w/ clothes moving etc. and they trick your eye. Always look @ source vid). Look for the side bend moving into the peak of the backswing, and again around the release and into follow through. I'm talking about these little green lines here:

Now notice this shape of his overall body from plant foot to head:


I didn't understand how to get my body to do it even once for the better part of a year. Then when I did one day I was like "oh, that's just like the waltz!" That's also why SW & I like to share golf videos that show the same thing. It's why I drew this picture. Waltz guy and Paul are both using side bend as described in the context of overall posture. You'll just usually see more of it in some moves and shots more than others:



See it yet? Side bend in the context of overall posture?

That's what I see in peak pro form over and over and over and over...

 

[Brychanus]

Also, I just did a bunch of medium effort / speed reps w/ a flight towel of keeping my elbow up, ~90 degrees shoulder flexion during power pocket and reach back, and I can already feel more shoulder soreness just from that than when after dozens of 85% power tech disc throws with my normal form. So I think that's probably why I naturally developed muscle memory towards a bit of a lower shoulder flexion angle.

Also, I heard at one point pulling through a bit below the chest is more powerful due to more core muscle recruitment, and you either have to A LOT of internal rotation to get the disc more to the midsection or just lower the shoulder flexion a bit to more easily and comfortably get it there.

I had similar findings. Again as someone who is tall but very short-levered, the moves that bring the arm and disc closer to my center of mass always get more power at less effort. The rest is kind of just fussing with the move relative to my own anatomy getting the body out of the way and battling my poor coordination (sorry again, Sidewinder!).

Edit 1: If you have long levers it stands to reason that you can still get more power than the average bear in other arm "slots." You look like an advantaged body type so you may be able to learn to throw far in a few ways I suspect. However, there are theoretical reasons to think that moving more through your center can offer more peak power for reasons similar to other sports.

Edit 2: Also, it became very clear to me where sidebend and power thru the core come from in the door frame drills from seabas22/Sidewinder. He usually teaches people to use a low "reachback" in those to help them learn how to optimally recruit those mechanics. My first and most significant boost in "easy" power was after fixing my posture in those drills. I feel like almost everything else I've done since then is just figuring out how to get what that drill teaches into the frisbee as efficiently as possible in the "right" athletic motion and chain.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Yes! You want to sidebend in each direction anyway. It just looks much more subtle in the less aggressive trajectories. That's why you see people here consider it a fundamental part of the swing. A lot of athletes do it without thinking about it. Then there are a lot of athletes with "flat" form, which to me means not doing basically the following:

Watch for it in Wiggins in real time (I find that the stillframes actually make it harder to see w/ clothes moving etc. and they trick your eye. Always look @ source vid). Look for the side bend moving into the peak of the backswing, and again around the release and into follow through. I'm talking about these little green lines here:
View attachment 335500

Now notice this shape of his overall body from plant foot to head:
View attachment 335499

I didn't understand how to get my body to do it even once for the better part of a year. Then when I did one day I was like "oh, that's just like the waltz!" That's also why SW & I like to share golf videos that show the same thing. It's why I drew this picture. Waltz guy and Paul are both using side bend as described in the context of overall posture. You'll just usually see more of it in some moves and shots more than others:

View attachment 335497

See it yet? Side bend in the context of overall posture?

That's what I see in peak pro form over and over and over and over...

Yeah, I see the sidebend. I was looking at this:


I was thinking the sidebend towards the off-arm side at the end is aiding the higher launch angle since it tilts the throw arm side upwards

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah, I see the sidebend. I was looking at this:

View attachment 335501
I was thinking the sidebend towards the off-arm side at the end is aiding the higher launch angle since it tilts the throw arm side upwards

Oh totally, yeah, I think you can also mess with the degree of sidebend each way and manipulate different things. I was just feeling it out and I'm pretty sure I have a more pronounced side bend adjustment now when I try those high lines.

 

[Brychanus]

A little off but you get what I mean:

 

[disc-golf-neil]

A little off but you get what I mean:
View attachment 335503

Really? Your line is going through his left cheek, mine is crack-aligned

Cory Ellis might have a lower elbow default elbow position. Seeing this makes me wonder if I really should bother working on raising mine since my angle control is pretty good and my speed has been increasing steadily as I work on other things.

 

[Brychanus]

Really? Your line is going through his left cheek, mine is crack-aligned

Cory Ellis might have a lower elbow default elbow position. Seeing this makes me wonder if I really should bother working on raising mine since my angle control is pretty good and my speed has been increasing steadily as I work on other things.

View attachment 335505
View attachment 335506

Yeah I tried to get it through his buttcrack but I got tired of fussing with the tool (did I really just write that?)

Corey's relative arm and shoulder action looks like a good fit to you, superficially at least. Most peoples' seems to be some kind of compromise in the raw angles as a function of their body, arm action, and how they get leverage without spoiling it.

If you watch Corey make sure you look for "swinging upward nose down" even in his low lines. His sequence and posture are maybe something work tinkering with for you. Here's something I wanted to point out that would also get lost in stillframes until I learned to notice it.

Follow his elbow relative to his posture with your eye. Disc is often higher than elbow in reachback, then lower than elbow as he enters the release generally speaking. Elbow's path is basically controlled by his posture through his shoulder. Watch a few different shots and see if you see what I mean.



When you're ready I'd suggest putting attention back to your balance, coil, and move off the rear leg, but if you want to get your move off the front leg down w/ the arm action there's no time wasted there!

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Yeah I tried to get it through his buttcrack but I got tired of fussing with the tool (did I really just write that?)

Corey's relative arm and shoulder action looks like a good fit to you, superficially at least. Most peoples' seems to be some kind of compromise in the raw angles as a function of their body, arm action, and how they get leverage without spoiling it.

If you watch Corey make sure you look for "swinging upward nose down" even in his low lines. His sequence and posture are maybe something work tinkering with for you. Here's something I wanted to point out that would also get lost in stillframes until I learned to notice it.

Follow his elbow relative to his posture with your eye. Disc is often higher than elbow in reachback, then lower than elbow as he enters the release generally speaking. Elbow's path is basically controlled by his posture through his shoulder. Watch a few different shots and see if you see what I mean.



When you're ready I'd suggest putting attention back to your balance, coil, and move off the rear leg, but if you want to get your move off the front leg down w/ the arm action there's no time wasted there!

Great view.

It depends what I decide to work on, if my power pocket is somewhat compromised I want to backtrack and fix that asap, if it's maybe fine and within preference range, then I'll work more on the other stuff. I can work on loading the bow & sidebend while doing a higher elbow pull through because I'm doing it slow enough (w/ flight towel inside) to where I coil, pause, then pull through with a higher elbow, so I can work on 2 things but in separate phases so it's 1 at a time during each, lol.

Also, here's a preview of those tech disc stats, I got a pretty nose + launch combo but spin is lowish and wobble higher than usual. Maybe because I was cranking too late on the supination creating some wobble, not sure.

 

[RowingBoats]

Damn those are some crushes on some of the throws.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Damn those are some crushes on some of the throws.

Jake and Albert can both get a decent bit faster I'm sure since Albert can break 700 and Jake can break 600. Idk the MPH required for that but 69 is around min for 500.

Also throwing into the net maybe messed with their normal form that would give them more nose down due to not wanting to accidentally throw over the net, and they were testing some stuff as well on some of these throws.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@Brychanus It's still hard for me to believe on high effort throws that passive is the right word to describe the off arm. It looks so much like there's added active engagement for added explosivity for a harder throw. The off hand is the most blurred body part until the right arm speeds up.

25:42

Funny enough after they are done teeing Paul askes Jerm "how do they get the height" and Jerm says "a lower reach..." then cuts himself off and to discuss something else.

 

[RowingBoats]

@Brychanus It's still hard for me to believe on high effort throws that passive is the right word to describe the off arm. It looks so much like there's added active engagement for added explosivity for a harder throw. The off hand is the most blurred body part until the right arm speeds up.

25:42

I don't know if 'passive' is the right word, but I also don't like 'active'. The off arm will have to resist more and more as power increases. It just doesn't actually 'cause' the power in the way a lot of people seem to believe it might.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I don't know if 'passive' is the right word, but I also don't like 'active'. The off arm will have to resist more and more as power increases. It just doesn't actually 'cause' the power in the way a lot of people seem to believe it might.

Yeah, something in between seems better and passive is an overcorrection advice to people who are overly active with it.

It's "athleisure", lmao. The term for athletic-leisure clothing. Bit athletic, bit relaxed.

 

[Brychanus]

I don't know if 'passive' is the right word, but I also don't like 'active'. The off arm will have to resist more and more as power increases. It just doesn't actually 'cause' the power in the way a lot of people seem to believe it might.

Yeah, something in between seems better and passive is an overcorrection advice to people who are overly active with it.

It's "athleisure", lmao. The term for athletic-leisure clothing. Bit athletic, bit relaxed.

Hopefully you or any lurkers read this as playfully rhetorical, this isn't "aimed" at you neil but just to make my point:

I still desperately try to avoid saying "passive" or "active." I think some people make this way too complicated. It's a fundamental part of locomotion, including all sports, including disc golf. Do you swim with two arms? Do you walk with two arms? If I punch you in the face why do I hit you harder when I counter the move with the other arm? If I swing my 5 lb club at you does it accelerate like WeckMethod guy talks about in this exercise sequence below? If I use a lever arm or a "don't spill the beverage" move why do I get power from both of them and one more than the other? If I carry a heavy bag of groceries or my 20lb gigantic freaking baby, why does my opposite arm reach out in the opposite direction and counter the motion? Why does it have to work in the context of everything else for the power to go up? What do all of those moves have in common in a fundamental movement sense? Why do people argue about this?

/endrant



This guy sums it up more from 1:40 to 2:10.


1. First, move without noise (get long, fluid, and rhythm in leverage).
2. Shift the weight back and forth.
3. Now, give that off arm something to do.

Try a couple of the moves and pay attention to what happens to the club head when you leave the off arm flailing around limp vs. being integrated in the whole move.

I swear to Satan this taught me more about what athletic moves have in common in one workout package than I could have possibly imagined.

IMHO just don't decouple whatever you're doing from the sequence or mess up your posture and it can work. Try it with a water glass. Let the off arm and rear leg kick all the way through, then try to find that in your throwing. This blew my mind. Then I understood it even better when I did the 30 min club drills. Swing for the fences, baby.

All that being said, I've also seen people try the "ignore the passive/active" philosophy and fail miserably and need to work on other things. I'm sympathetic because I've been one of them for basically every part of the move. I'm just saying that people also do this all the time without thinking about it then often have the expected level of shocked confusion when trying to apply it to a frisbee. Just turn the frisbee task into the other tasks (and if that fails, my word do we have a deep bag of tricks to pull from!)

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@Brychanus working on off leg counterbalance while warming up for pickleball lol