Form critique request

[disc-golf-neil]

• I started playing on 9/10/23, this video is from today. I have a racket sport background and have played A LOT of DG in these 4 weeks and have watched a lot of tournaments and form videos.
• Both drives in this video felt the best today. I usually toe drag the back foot most of the follow through but in these drives my back foot actually came up and allowed me to follow through more fully even though I didn't think about doing that. I'm assuming it's better timing and bodyweight transfer that resulted in this naturally occuring.
• Both drives (Tern, Roadrunner) went a little over 300 ft and were parked, which makes sense since these shots also felt the best today form-wise.

My max distance was 385 ft a week ago and I was able to break 300 ft regularly and semi-regularly get 350 ft drives, but I felt like I was muscling it so for the last week I was trying to improve my form and muscle it less, but now I rarely get above 320 ft. I also changed my grip from locking knuckles to curling knuckles and improved the nose angle by aligning the disc lower (between the index and middle finger). I don't think the grip change caused a loss of power.

I think while changing my form, I just accidentally messed up my timing and started reaching back and coiling as soon as my back foot landed for the x step, but in the linked video, I tried to start the reach back later and it seemed to help a lot, but it still seems like I'm missing power.

Some things I think I need to improve are:

1. More closed brace foot, I have a tendency to open it a little. Probably as a precaution because a few times my foot didn't pivot accidentally and I twisted my knee.
2. Brace foot more in front of back foot instead of aligned. I think I did this in the video a bit, but I might need to do it more.
3. More coiling. I used to use the off arm as a guide for this, pulling the elbow back, but I kinda lost that muscle memory while focusing on other stuff.
4. Bringing the off arm in closer and maybe faster. Maybe I should try to do it more like McBeth to remind myself to bring it in even closer because right now it's automatically coming in without thought but not enough.
5. Upwards floating pull back: my pull back keeps floating up higher than I want accidentally and it's been very hard to change, when I feel like I fixed it the video shows otherwise. I think it happens from overemphasizing keeping the elbow up, and as I bend the knees down, the downward body movement causes the arm to float up. But maybe I'm still finishing the reach back too soon and that delay causes it to hang around and float. This is causing my pull through to the power pocket to be higher than I want, sometimes around the collar bone instead closer to the middle of my chest.
   1. Maybe I should keep the elbow down a bit more so it floats up to where it should be. Is this is why many pros seem to keep their elbow down until it needs to come up? Because the arm has a natural tendency to come up?
   2. Or, instead of leaving more room for it to come up, I just need to force myself to keep it down

Open youtube separately if the video quality looks bad at the start.

 

[sidewinder22]

You are way ahead of where I was at 4 weeks, and most people.

Note how your spine is extended/anterior pelvic tilt and leaning way back behind your rear foot.
Note how Eagle is more stacked/balanced on rear foot and backswing loads back inside/forward of rear foot. This enables him to pivot centered much quicker into the backswing during the stride and turn/coil everything further back into the plant.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

You are way ahead of where I was at 4 weeks, and most people.

Note how your spine is extended/anterior pelvic tilt and leaning way back behind your rear foot.
Note how Eagle is more stacked/balanced on rear foot and backswing loads back inside/forward of rear foot. This enables him to pivot centered much quicker into the backswing during the stride and turn/coil everything further back into the plant.
View attachment 321186

Thanks so much! I'll review these videos in depth.

That alignment picture comparison is very helpful because it's very hard for me to notice that part of form myself right now consciously.

The Eagle pic is throwing me off a bit because I keep wondering what his off arm is doing there at that stage of the sequence, I've never seen him do that in the recent tourneys which is all I've seen of him. But, that's not the focus of the pic, hah.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

On a side note, sidewinder (idk how to mention you), could you shed some light on the green line vs the orange line for grip alignment? I've seen the green as the most recommended but I'm noticing more pros using the orange and have heard others say it helps with nose angle.

 

[sidewinder22]

I don't see much difference between the green and orange lines. Whoever that is appears to have extremely long fingers which could play a role in how the disc sits. Theoretically the orange would be slightly more nose down as the disc pivots out and the rearside of the disc becomes the nose.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

It's me with normal size hand and fingers but camera was on 0.5 zoom just and landscape which did something weird.

Wouldn't that mean red is even more nose down then? I don't believe it is but if the steeper orange line is more nose down than green, well red is steeper than orange.

 

[sidewinder22]

Not necessarily. It's a different fulcrum point and shorter lever.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Not necessarily. It's a different fulcrum point and shorter lever.

Thanks. Great videos by the way, I especially liked the loading the bow one, it's a great way to feel the muscle loading and stretch.

Back on the topic of grip, all else equal, what would you expect to be the impact of it to finger grip on drives if the two fingers were strong enough to not accidentally early release.

My instinct is that it should create a cleaner release and pivot point which should improve spin, and potentially wobble because you can go into the pivot point, without the back fingers being ripped off the disk 1st, which may introduce wobble before you even get to the main pivot.

However, in overthrows data video where they compared different power grips found 2 fingers worse in most stats. Is it mostly a lack of enough strength when only using 2 fingers?

 

[sidewinder22]

It had been theorized that 2 finger would yield more spin allowing more range of motion of the wrist. You need to have better technique/leverage to throw properly with 2 finger grip. When I was learning with a 2 finger grip, I had to change the way I swung the disc so that I didn't need to have more or even the same amount grip strength. If you push the disc release out wider it delays centripetal force.

All the OT video proves is that they don't throw better with 2 fingers. Could be a matter of getting more used to a 2 finger grip, or modifying their 2 finger grip, or modifying their technique, or a combination of those.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

It had been theorized that 2 finger would yield more spin allowing more range of motion of the wrist. You need to have better technique/leverage to throw properly with 2 finger grip. When I was learning with a 2 finger grip, I had to change the way I swung the disc so that I didn't need to have more or even the same amount grip strength. If you push the disc release out wider it delays centripetal force.

All the OT video proves is that they don't throw better with 2 fingers. Could be a matter of getting more used to a 2 finger grip, or modifying their 2 finger grip, or modifying their technique, or a combination of those.
View attachment 321497

Cool, thanks. I like the feel of it, being able to focus more on pinching the pivot.

I come from climbing and have pretty strong fingers and grip, never felt like I've ever been at risk of not having enough strength so I've been thinking I should give a 2 finger grip a try.

 

[Brychanus]

Cool, thanks. I like the feel of it, being able to focus more on pinching the pivot.

I come from climbing and have pretty strong fingers and grip, never felt like I've ever been at risk of not having enough strength so I've been thinking I should give a 2 finger grip a try.

FWIW I used to do grip strength assessments in neuropsychology, and the average male peak instantaneous grip strength was already sufficient to hang on/hammer out the peak force of a 70mph throw. The ergonomics are different of course so that's more trivia than science IMO but it amused me. Like SW is saying focusing on the technique can get you there in the long run anyway. FWIW I've been around the grip block a couple times now and think there are tradeoffs like he is saying. One thing I like about the more relaxed grips while learning is that they tend to reduce the likelihood your body binds up too much somewhere prematurely and causes muscling/fighting with yourself.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I believe I've made some improvements! Any follow up advice on my new form?

Something I still need to address is keeping before my reach back, I think my disc should be more aligned with my back leg and not in front of me too much. I might still be opening the hip a little and need to do a shorter brace step as well.

You are way ahead of where I was at 4 weeks, and most people.

Note how your spine is extended/anterior pelvic tilt and leaning way back behind your rear foot.
Note how Eagle is more stacked/balanced on rear foot and backswing loads back inside/forward of rear foot. This enables him to pivot centered much quicker into the backswing during the stride and turn/coil everything further back into the plant.
View attachment 321186

 

[sidewinder22]

Here's peak reachback/top backswing. You are leaning way back behind your rear leg. If you were doing Door Frame Drill your rear foot is too far north from the door frame and you would get stuck hanging in this position way before you could plant your front foot. You would have no leverage against the door frame with the rear leg.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Awesome, thanks! I'll work on this! The pictures really help make it clear.

I think this happened while trying to focus more on closing the brace foot so I slowed down and took a shorter stride, but the less momentum and some hesitation while thinking about the brace foot before dropping it lead to holding the weight back. I also had some knee pain a while ago from some extra grippy tee's and lack of pivot experience where the heel pivot wanted to happened but did not and I twisted into the knee too much, so I'm probably subconsciously avoiding planting hard. I'm more confident in my heel pivot know so it's the perfect time to focus on this!

Here's peak reachback/top backswing. You are leaning way back behind your rear leg. If you were doing Door Frame Drill your rear foot is too far north from the door frame and you would get stuck hanging in this position way before you could plant your front foot. You would have no leverage against the door frame with the rear leg.
View attachment 323142

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Here's peak reachback/top backswing. You are leaning way back behind your rear leg. If you were doing Door Frame Drill your rear foot is too far north from the door frame and you would get stuck hanging in this position way before you could plant your front foot. You would have no leverage against the door frame with the rear leg.
View attachment 323142

Which of your videos should I watch for controlling release angles? hyzer, etc.

I used to naturally over hyzer accidentally but practiced flat and anhyzer, but now when I go for a little bit of hyzer I'm losing it ang ending up flat or a tad bit anhyzer.

I think I start out leaning my upper body forward a bit but during the power pocket I undo that and start standing up too straight and lose the hyzer.

It seems like there are 3 main ways to control release angle: hinging at the hips, shoulder hinge (shoulder flexion or extension), and forearm pronation and supination. People who briefcase carry perhaps rely most on forearm rotation since they over pronate temporarily into the power pocket but then supinate back to where they want to be. I'm sure no one is doing only one of these, but I'm trying to figure out which to focus most on.

Shoulder flexion and extension seems to me to be the least likely to be used as the primary mechanism because you don't want to drop the elbow too much or raise it too much to where you are pulling through near the collar bones.

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Here's peak reachback/top backswing. You are leaning way back behind your rear leg. If you were doing Door Frame Drill your rear foot is too far north from the door frame and you would get stuck hanging in this position way before you could plant your front foot. You would have no leverage against the door frame with the rear leg.
View attachment 323142

Thanks, working on these issues helped me reach my goal of breaking 400 feet!

I started adding some back view footage and noticed I allowed some rounding to creep back into my form (in the 12-2-23 vid), so addressing that also helped, of course.



I still need to work on the anterior pelvic tilt. It's sort of a default for me I think when I walk too it's present a bit.

I'm still leaning back too much, but have felt some extra power from thinking about lunging my weight into the brace more and thinking about trying to knock someone over with my right shoulder blade.

Also, to address leaning back too much, I'm trying to do a shorter X step and hop into it to transfer the forward momentum better. By hop into it I mean getting the right foot off the ground before the left X step lands. I need to exaggerate this more though, because when I try to do it, it still looks like my X step is too big sometimes.

I'm also finishing my reach back too soon as well. To address this, I'm planning to practice coiling first, and then extending the elbow after the coil is done instead of at the same time, which makes it finish sooner and pushes the disc back too much. Maybe I should also or instead just delay when I start coiling.

Other than the above issues I mentioned, and what you've mentioned before, do you see any other major issues with the new video?

And do you agree with my above plans for addressing the issues?

Would you recommend I try the off-arm swim move, or does it not matter if I'm already gravitating towards and have muscle memory for bringing it in to the side?

 

[sidewinder22]

Fixing this starting position/posture would be top priority. Note how Paul is running like a human, not crouching nor leaving his butt out behind. Getting into Paul's position will probably feel very upright to you.

Secondarily keep the left elbow closer to your hip. Changing your posture/balance should also help the rear arm motion/need to counter balance out-of-balance condition.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Fixing this starting position/posture would be top priority. Note how Paul is running like a human, not crouching nor leaving his butt out behind. Getting into Paul's position will probably feel very upright to you.

Secondarily keep the left elbow closer to your hip. Changing your posture/balance should also help the rear arm motion/need to counter balance out-of-balance condition.

View attachment 329460

Thanks. Yeah I ended up over exaggerating the lean forward because I kept accidentally standing up straighter during the power pocket and losing my intended hyzer body angle but that definitely was a bandaid and needs to be addressed before it gets too ingrained.

 

[sidewinder22]

Thanks. Yeah I ended up over exaggerating the lean forward because I kept accidentally standing up straighter during the power pocket and losing my intended hyzer body angle but that definitely was a bandaid and needs to be addressed before it gets too ingrained.

I think the more you start bent over, the more you will stand up. So do the opposite and start standing straight up and then get more athletic and lower/compressed during the throw. Like going into a half-pipe skate boarding, you compress and pump the ground at the bottom of the ramp. Or standing on a swing set and pumping to swing.

https://makeagif.com/i/XqdKvr