Form critique request

[disc-golf-neil]

I think the more you start bent over, the more you will stand up. So do the opposite and start standing straight up and then get more athletic and lower/compressed during the throw. Like going into a half-pipe skate boarding, you compress and pump the ground at the bottom of the ramp. Or standing on a swing set and pumping to swing.

https://makeagif.com/i/XqdKvr

Lmao, I've seen this video. And that skateboarding analogy makes sense especially since I used to skateboard. Appreciate it!

Have you written somewhere or done a video explaining your thoughts on the off-arm swim move vs the typical by-the-side off arm move?

 

[sidewinder22]

The SW22 Swim Move

Our boy SW22 dropped a little nugget on somebody about the off arm (paraphrasing): off arm comes in with the heel plant and then makes a swimming paddle motion during swing. -ot2eYUqjtQ I've brought the off arm in before, but it was just to keep it tighter to the body (and then I still often...

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[Thereitgoestoday]

• I started playing on 9/10/23, this video is from today. I have a racket sport background and have played A LOT of DG in these 4 weeks and have watched a lot of tournaments and form videos.
• Both drives in this video felt the best today. I usually toe drag the back foot most of the follow through but in these drives my back foot actually came up and allowed me to follow through more fully even though I didn't think about doing that. I'm assuming it's better timing and bodyweight transfer that resulted in this naturally occuring.
• Both drives (Tern, Roadrunner) went a little over 300 ft and were parked, which makes sense since these shots also felt the best today form-wise.

My max distance was 385 ft a week ago and I was able to break 300 ft regularly and semi-regularly get 350 ft drives, but I felt like I was muscling it so for the last week I was trying to improve my form and muscle it less, but now I rarely get above 320 ft. I also changed my grip from locking knuckles to curling knuckles and improved the nose angle by aligning the disc lower (between the index and middle finger). I don't think the grip change caused a loss of power.

I think while changing my form, I just accidentally messed up my timing and started reaching back and coiling as soon as my back foot landed for the x step, but in the linked video, I tried to start the reach back later and it seemed to help a lot, but it still seems like I'm missing power.

Some things I think I need to improve are:

1. More closed brace foot, I have a tendency to open it a little. Probably as a precaution because a few times my foot didn't pivot accidentally and I twisted my knee.
2. Brace foot more in front of back foot instead of aligned. I think I did this in the video a bit, but I might need to do it more.
3. More coiling. I used to use the off arm as a guide for this, pulling the elbow back, but I kinda lost that muscle memory while focusing on other stuff.
4. Bringing the off arm in closer and maybe faster. Maybe I should try to do it more like McBeth to remind myself to bring it in even closer because right now it's automatically coming in without thought but not enough.
5. Upwards floating pull back: my pull back keeps floating up higher than I want accidentally and it's been very hard to change, when I feel like I fixed it the video shows otherwise. I think it happens from overemphasizing keeping the elbow up, and as I bend the knees down, the downward body movement causes the arm to float up. But maybe I'm still finishing the reach back too soon and that delay causes it to hang around and float. This is causing my pull through to the power pocket to be higher than I want, sometimes around the collar bone instead closer to the middle of my chest.
   1. Maybe I should keep the elbow down a bit more so it floats up to where it should be. Is this is why many pros seem to keep their elbow down until it needs to come up? Because the arm has a natural tendency to come up?
   2. Or, instead of leaving more room for it to come up, I just need to force myself to keep it down

Open youtube separately if the video quality looks bad at the start.

You could have a tea party on that tee pad

 

[Brychanus]

Compare your shoulder line to Eagle's. Then compare the vertical separation in his rear knee compare to his front knee. Your move is too flat relative to the ground and between the lower and upper body. SW's most recent post will help make it more likely you can "run like a human" and find the leverage. Sidewinder's (1) Load the Bow and (2) Dingle arm are almost certainly two things you have not fully encoded the "feel" for. Eagle's move will feel much more harmonious with gravity, and will recruit his core and hips much more dramatically.


Eagle is not the best example for most humans, but I want to point out another thing that makes his move so dramatically effective and why his 80mph isn't just levers. To most people, they notice Eagle moving "horizontally" along the ground. And sure, he does in a sense. But even compared to other smashers, his flexibility and posture give him exceptional access to leverage directly back against the ground/gravity (is "vertical"). So much so that his plant hip actually clears almost directly back toward the sky when he loads up most shots (marked by the two yellow dots in the right column, below). That is pretty much the most mechanically efficient "post up" I can imagine, and it's only so effective because the rest of his move is outstanding. The point is not to try to do exactly what he does - most people can't. But what you want is more or less your version of everything else he is doing, which requires the above. Your "ideal" move is probably somewhere between Gibson and Lizotte, I reckon. Notice their shoulders and knees, and how their run is naturally postured too.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@RowingBoats @Brychanus @Sheep

I got a new PR (439 feet) my first field work session after you guys pointed out my collapsed shoulder angle and squishing the bug issues. I simply tried to drive the elbow more than before and stop thinking about rotating right away, and transfer weight into the brace more. My back leg immediately started coming off the ground more than usual but I still had some shoulder collapse. I'm going to need to do practice drills to get the muscle memory down for driving the elbow right as I brace because I previously tried to stop muscling with the arm but that just lead to driving the elbow too late and rotating too much soon instead, which was worse.

I think another contributing factor for my shoulder collapse is because of extending my elbow too soon. When the elbow is extended and you are still coiling, it's very easy for the arm to pick up momentum in the direction of coiling, so by the time the brace happens the arm is already losing it's wide angle from that momentum. Most pros seem have some timing mechanism to not extend the elbow until the last moment.

I think I'll get more PRs as soon as I fix this!

I made a vid trying to show some of these thoughts since I haven't heard seen any vids bring up that bad arm momentum specifically. I also recorded a full round for fun and analysis, but also people were suggesting I just focus on hitting actual lines, so maybe if people see I do focus on that too they won't be as worried about discussing / indulging other ideas I post about, lol.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think another contributing factor for my shoulder collapse is because of extending my elbow too soon. When the elbow is extended and you are still coiling, it's very easy for the arm to pick up momentum in the direction of coiling, so by the time the brace happens the arm is already losing it's wide angle from that momentum. Most pros seem have some timing mechanism to not extend the elbow until the last moment.

I think I'll get more PRs as soon as I fix this!

I made a vid trying to show some of these thoughts since I haven't heard seen any vids bring up that bad arm momentum specifically. I also recorded a full round for fun and analysis, but also people were suggesting I just focus on hitting actual lines, so maybe if people see I do focus on that too they won't be as worried about discussing / indulging other ideas I post about, lol.

Thought I kind of explained the bad horizontal momentum at 3:50 that isn't redirected back out wide. Also why I teach a pendulum backswing and leaving the disc in place(Loading Bow and Arrow/Door Frame Drills) as they have no horizontal momentum, or is it rotational momentum or some of both.

Straight & Flat Swing Plane Does Not Exist!

So I think a lot of players really struggle finding that effortless distance because they are trying to throw straight and flat by pulling the disc with the arm in a straight line and trying to manipulate the spin of the disc flat by actively curling the wrist and arm into horizontal flexion and...

www.dgcoursereview.com

 

[Brychanus]

I never doubted your peak huck potential. How can you get there efficiently?

I'll keep throwing the big picture at ya, love:

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Thought I kind of explained the bad horizontal momentum at 3:50 that isn't redirected back out wide. Also why I teach a pendulum backswing and leaving the disc in place(Loading Bow and Arrow/Door Frame Drills) as they have no horizontal momentum, or is it rotational momentum or some of both.

Straight & Flat Swing Plane Does Not Exist!

So I think a lot of players really struggle finding that effortless distance because they are trying to throw straight and flat by pulling the disc with the arm in a straight line and trying to manipulate the spin of the disc flat by actively curling the wrist and arm into horizontal flexion and...

www.dgcoursereview.com

I forgot an about that part of the vid but it sounds like you're talking more about the pull through part there whereas I'm talking more about before that.

My motion does not originally seem like I will hug myself. Im reaching out wider than 90 but the arm swings into a hug motion because it was momentum from coiling.

It makes me think of Niklas form, he extends the arm early and wide it seems but somehow avoids the arm swinging in too close to the body. It looks like his form introduces more of this risk (maybe only for AMs who try this style) that has to then be prevented rather than never being a risk in the first place by delaying elbow extension until after coiling as one common method.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I never doubted your peak huck potential. How can you get there efficiently?

I'll keep throwing the big picture at ya, love:

View attachment 331826

Is that picture a good comparison? I'm doing basically a soft approach shot without hyzer. Everyone else is doing a big throw it looks like or SW mimicking the setup for one.

I definitely don't throw like that when throwing far, lol.

 

[Brychanus]

Is that picture a good comparison? I'm doing basically a soft approach shot without hyzer. Everyone else is doing a big throw it looks like or SW mimicking the setup for one.

Yes. I won't be verbose later if I can help it, but you are one curious cat and it seems like you need some help understanding how form theory and critiques tend to go around here. I also want to help you stop getting distracted be details that don't matter, or matter more later.

I chose that one intentionally because it was one of the only angles from the rear of tee where your momentum is carrying on average almost directly away from the camera/90 degrees. The other angles are not ideal. Usually the same problems people have in upshots or different throwing angles are related to the problems in their other throws. Your form is not an exception. Try to get true 90 degree angles for form critiques. Otherwise you'll just distract yourself and see ghosts. #beentheredonethat.

Your body is not recruiting the coiling pattern than Eagle uses fundamentally.

Once you correct for the camera angle and net momentum of your body down the tee (yellow arrows), you can see that you are leaving your disc way out to the West (if top of tee is North). Your field power shot (first image on the left) probably looks somewhat better to you, but that is why each picture only ever tells you part of the story. Intentional or not, you ran with that "wide rail" concept but left the main point of the backswing and posture integrity out of your form.

A major fundamental problem is that you are not fully loaded and coiled into the rear side in good posture.

Look how much more dramatic separation Eagle has between his shoulders and knees and hips. Part of the way he achieves the effect is that he allows his coil and backswing to be left behind quite like the Load the Bow drill.




Not pictured: Eagle has dramatically more separation North-South between his shoulders coiling back. In contrast, you are missing most of that oblique sling and lat loading and rubber-band like tension at the peak of the backswing. That is a big part of why you leave your rear side trailing behind you, and rounding.



Yeah, with your body and aggression and momentum down the tee you'll be somewhere in the 400s with that. I'm not even going to tell you to stop that entirely. But it's like running a V8 engine on only 6 cylinders. You possibly have 500'+ potential if you have the patience to slow down and back up to fix it.

You cannot fake leverage and posture after it is lost, or if you never had it.

Everyone struggles with this stuff.

FYI, there's an entire passage in Fundamentals about rounding because people use all kinds of ways of talking about it, but really it's just about avoiding collapse. That's why Eagle and many other pros can backswing almost "behind" him more like Load the Bow and not be rounding. It's what his posture is doing to create a powerful arm path in excelllent leverage that matters.

 

[RowingBoats]

Is that picture a good comparison? I'm doing basically a soft approach shot without hyzer. Everyone else is doing a big throw it looks like or SW mimicking the setup for one.

I definitely don't throw like that when throwing far, lol.

I'm not one of the gurus of form here, so take anything I say with a grain of salt because its all pretty much personal anecdote...

But I will say that it is a good idea to get rid of categorical distinctions based solely on power level in a swing. I would even go as far as saying that truly eliminating any rounding tendencies had just as huge of an impact on my upshots as anything else, and honestly, maybe more! The posture requirements/benefits do not change fundamentally.

I wish we could hang out in person so I could potentially show you some weird things to just play with that most adult human bodies will naturally be able to build on. When you say things like 'coiling momentum is causing your arm to go into a rounding position' it just makes me think you are conceptualizing the coil much differently than I do. Coiling does not mean violently rotating, its more of a loading stretching feeling.

I agree with SW22 about getting a solid swing with a pendulum backswing. And I think hyper exaggerating a wide upper arm angle can be a benefit too. Both of these things combined will probably feel weird to you, but it will be worth taking the time to really explore this.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Yes. I won't be verbose later if I can help it, but you are one curious cat and it seems like you need some help understanding how form theory and critiques tend to go around here. I also want to help you stop getting distracted be details that don't matter, or matter more later.

I chose that one intentionally because it was one of the only angles from the rear of tee where your momentum is carrying on average almost directly away from the camera/90 degrees. The other angles are not ideal. Usually the same problems people have in upshots or different throwing angles are related to the problems in their other throws. Your form is not an exception. Try to get true 90 degree angles for form critiques. Otherwise you'll just distract yourself and see ghosts. #beentheredonethat.

Your body is not recruiting the coiling pattern than Eagle uses fundamentally.

Once you correct for the camera angle and net momentum of your body down the tee (yellow arrows), you can see that you are leaving your disc way out to the West (if top of tee is North). Your field power shot (first image on the left) probably looks somewhat better to you, but that is why each picture only ever tells you part of the story. Intentional or not, you ran with that "wide rail" concept but left the main point of the backswing and posture integrity out of your form.

A major fundamental problem is that you are not fully loaded and coiled into the rear side in good posture.

Look how much more dramatic separation Eagle has between his shoulders and knees and hips. Part of the way he achieves the effect is that he allows his coil and backswing to be left behind quite like the Load the Bow drill.


View attachment 331833

Not pictured: Eagle has dramatically more separation North-South between his shoulders coiling back. In contrast, you are missing most of that oblique sling and lat loading and rubber-band like tension at the peak of the backswing. That is a big part of why you leave your rear side trailing behind you, and rounding.

View attachment 331829

Yeah, with your body and aggression and momentum down the tee you'll be somewhere in the 400s with that. I'm not even going to tell you to stop that entirely. But it's like running a V8 engine on only 6 cylinders. You possibly have 500'+ potential if you have the patience to slow down and back up to fix it.

You cannot fake leverage and posture after it is lost, or if you never had it.

Everyone struggles with this stuff.

FYI, there's an entire passage in Fundamentals about rounding because people use all kinds of ways of talking about it, but really it's just about avoiding collapse. That's why Eagle and many other pros can backswing almost "behind" him more like Load the Bow and not be rounding. It's what his posture is doing to create a powerful arm path in excelllent leverage that matters.

I've noticed before in views directly behind pros that it sometimes looks like their chest suddenly pulls away from the camera, it seems like that's the loading the bow drill in action. I toyed around with it for a bit but a while ago but had too many other issues I was still working on so I didn't stick with it enough. Will try loading the bow more with a slow walk up.

 

[Brychanus]

I've noticed before in views directly behind pros that it sometimes looks like their chest suddenly pulls away from the camera, it seems like that's the loading the bow drill in action. I toyed around with it for a bit but a while ago but had too many other issues I was still working on so I didn't stick with it enough. Will try loading the bow more with a slow walk up.

Yes, give that a shot. Once I started getting it the chest just kind of explodes back toward the target on its own and you feel the uncoiling of the whole body from the ground up. It should feel incredibly low effort overall.

Literally use the pool cue or stick against the wall with a low backswing to see if you can adjust. Do it more times than you think you need to.

It also helped me to work with moves like these back and forth. This is exactly the same thing is "coiling." In your case, you should play with coiling back against the rear leg slowly at first, then add more and more momentum. Notice how he gets the throwing arm wrapped up all the way around him, and is letting the disc leverage all the way out through the release point each way. Whole sequence is good but I'm talking about ~2:48 specifically. Also try it with a stick or club.


Also similar principles in WeckMethod stuff, just with a bigger club. Even after 2 years I was still having trouble getting fully into posture on my backswing side and getting loose and moving big and free with these has been helping.



Sidewinder pointed to me to their "Royal Coil" drill which is what got me into their broader moveset. I think if you try the Royal Coil you will have trouble getting all the way into it at first. It's directly related to how Eagle gets so deep into that posture (he's also young and made of rubber, but you get what I mean).

 

[disc-golf-neil]

When you say things like 'coiling momentum is causing your arm to go into a rounding position' it just makes me think you are conceptualizing the coil much differently than I do.

I definitely need to work on loading the bow more, but if you look at the Niklas vid I posted above, I think you can clearly see the arm extending away from the body early and then as he coils with the arm extend the arm is moving in the direction of his torso coil so it picks up some momentum that it looks like he has to counter a bit to avoid it coming in too close to the body as he starts going into the power pocket. This seems like a difference when compared to those who delay the elbow extension and let the arm get pulled back more linearly.

 

[Brychanus]

People are free to pick and choose their form models, just wanted to point out:

if you watch Nilkas from multiple angles, he still brings his backswing so that it moves "inside" his posture more like Eagle. Also pay attention to the stacking from ankle to shoulder at the peak of the backswing. Yellow arrow is average-ish of his momentum down the tee. White line is the "stacking" from ankle to shoulder. Blue arrow is rough trajectory of the disc.

Mechanically, unlike Eagle, Niklas tends to leave his rear side trailing open a bit (varies a bit) and probably isn't getting quite as good leverage as Eagle and probably a bit less efficiency because his coil isn't as quite well aligned within his own body or against gravity., and the looping backswing makes it harder to maintain an intact rearside (in my experience). His backswing does loop around quite a bit. I'm not sure that's the most consistent mechanic and he does sometimes seem to spray more horizontally than some people at similar ratings. Our form models can matter, after all:




Usually harder for people to see until they know what to look for: Niklas' follow through tends to come through flatter and his trailing leg has to loop around his front side, which is usually an indicator of weight shift inefficiency. But an experienced eye already can tell that is going to happen due to the above.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

People are free to pick and choose their form models, just wanted to point out:

if you watch Nilkas from multiple angles, he still brings his backswing so that it moves "inside" his posture more like Eagle. Also pay attention to the stacking from ankle to shoulder at the peak of the backswing. Yellow arrow is average-ish of his momentum down the tee. White line is the "stacking" from ankle to shoulder. Blue arrow is rough trajectory of the disc.
View attachment 331848
Mechanically, unlike Eagle, Niklas tends to leave his rear side trailing open a bit (varies a bit) and probably isn't getting quite as good leverage as Eagle and probably a bit less efficiency because his coil isn't as quite well aligned within his own body or against gravity., and the looping backswing makes it harder to maintain an intact rearside (in my experience). His backswing does loop around quite a bit. I'm not sure that's the most consistent mechanic and he does sometimes seem to spray more horizontally than some people at similar ratings. Our form models can matter, after all:

View attachment 331850


Usually harder for people to see until they know what to look for: Niklas' follow through tends to come through flatter and his trailing leg has to loop around his front side, which is usually an indicator of weight shift inefficiency. But an experienced eye already can tell that is going to happen due to the above.

Interesting, thanks. Why do you think Eagles back leg comes up so much sooner? More / better forward weight transfer into the brace?

 

[Brychanus]

Interesting, thanks. Why do you think Eagles back leg comes up so much sooner? More / better forward weight transfer into the brace?

YW!

Yes combo of that plus better coil and tension against the rear side at the peak of the backswing

 

[disc-golf-neil]

When the brace foot lands, should the off-arm come in just before the elbow drives? Or at the same time?

I've been trying to do it at the same time mostly but after taking a closer look at some pros it seems like many bring the off arm in just before starting to drive the elbow, I guess to get the off-side of the body to start pulling on throwing arm before the throwing arm starts to elbow drive?

I tried to focus on this part of my tech disc session today and I broke my max speed by 2 mph.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Also why I teach a pendulum backswing

Where do you go most in depth about the pendulum backswing? Dingle arm vid?

 

[sidewinder22]

Backhand: Reach Back vs "Moving Around the Disc" (McBeth Style)

So I want to be able to throw as far & accurate as I possibly can (like everyone) & I'm having problems deciding which technique to use backhand. In the Ask McBeth thread I noticed McBeth said he doesn't reach back in the traditional way but rather keeps the disc in the same spot & moves around...

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