Go directly to Drop Zone with penalty

[BillFleming]

One of my local courses (Vista Del Camino AKA Shelly Sharpe DGC) has several water holes. Hole 18 plays mainly over water. However, there is a small strip of land between the water and the sidewalk (OB). If you go in the water, there is a drop zone.

I cannot make the throw over the water. Until now, my only other option was to throw over the small strip of land and go out of bounds. (I only throw forehand, so my discs end up going right). Although, I have tried the 'overland, go out of bounds' and still ended up in the water. Yes, I'm working on improving, but throwing over water really does me in.

My question (and I posted this to the PDGA Rules Committee, but I'm curious what you all think about it) is:

Can I 'ignore' the initial tee, go directly to the drop zone, take my 'ignored' throw and penalty throw; so I'm throwing 3 from the drop zone? That's the same thing I would be throwing if I had thrown from the tee box and gone in the water. So can I go to the drop zone and keep from losing a disc as long as I count the throw I didn't take from the intended tee and the penalty throw?

Reason I'm curious about this is that it would save me discs...I've put about 10 discs in that pond and would like to keep the rest out until I get better/more confident.

 

[BillFleming]

To be clear about this, I'm trying to find out if it would be legal in sanctioned play. In casual play, I've told my card what I'm going to do and they've been okay with it, but I have had someone say they think it would be against the rules in sanctioned play. I wouldn't want to be DQ'd or get extra strokes if I did this in tournament or other sanctioned play and it turned out to be illegal by the rules.

 

[biscoe]

I have allowed it for years at any number of events of varying tier. (Doesn't necessarily make it technically legal)

 

[Karl]

Throw "just into" the nearest place that's OB, go retrieve your disc, and proceed to the DZ.

 

[biscoe]

Actually now that i look... "If a drop zone has been provided for an out-of-bounds area, the Director may allow players to proceed directly to that drop zone at the cost of two penalty throws."

 

[oldmandiscer]

From my experience if you are playing rec or intermediate they usually factor that players cannot throw far and the TD would likely make that drop zone area the tee box for those divisions. I don't know how far this water carry is but unless you play open I usually don't see 300-350 foot water carries. Forgive me if it's 200-250 they might expect those divisions to play from there as well.

 

[chevis]

Actually now that i look... "If a drop zone has been provided for an out-of-bounds area, the Director may allow players to proceed directly to that drop zone at the cost of two penalty throws."

found here 806.02 Out-of-Bounds G.

 

[BillFleming]

From my experience if you are playing rec or intermediate they usually factor that players cannot throw far and the TD would likely make that drop zone area the tee box for those divisions. I don't know how far this water carry is but unless you play open I usually don't see 300-350 foot water carries. Forgive me if it's 200-250 they might expect those divisions to play from there as well.

I'm rec, but the provision isn't normally there. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. From the tee to the basket is 313 feet. From the tee to land is ~305. My best distance (tailwind, perfect throw) is 250+/-. I can't make it. Which is why the question...if they don't have different tees for pros/ams/rec...is my option allowed?

 

[BillFleming]

Throw "just into" the nearest place that's OB, go retrieve your disc, and proceed to the DZ.

I should have been clearer....OB doesn't go to the drop zone...just in the water. But where I can land, OB is so close to the water that my disc usually rolls in anyways. I take my 1 meter in from where I went OB and I'm still throwing across water....not as far, but I usually shank it. In fact, the majority of the time I try to throw OB to leave myself a good shot, I end up shanking it into the water - lost disc, go to DZ. I'd rather just take my strokes and go directly to the DZ until I get better and more confident.

So I guess a better way to word my question is....can I basically abandon a throw before I even take it?

"I know this is really going to be bad, so I'm abandoning it, taking my strokes and going to the DZ".

 

[Cgkdisc]

The Steady Ed course at the IDGC has the rule where anyone playing the blue (back) tees may go to the shorter red tee and be playing their 3rd throw if they don't want to try and cross the water from the blue tee on the 6 holes that usually have water. Recommend printing this option on tee signs and scorecards if you want this 806.02G OB option on your course.

 

[Meillo]

I feel much with you, BillFleming.

As a TD option, this makes sense, as a general rule maybe not so much. What about OBs or mandos you only reach/miss on your second shot? Could you then go to the DZ in two? Or what about hitting the first tree and landing in jail: could you then teleport to the DZ in two? Sounds like a cheater option.

Concerning specific holes and especially when going over water, I'd love to have this option. In tournaments, TDs should allow for them. But I think it cannot be part of the general rules because with it one could cheat on some holes or in some situations.

 

[roggenb3]

Any time I have ever played a water carry of ~200' or more in an event, that is called out as an option at the players meetings.

No TD is going to force MA3 to try throwing that far over water.

 

[Steve West]

found here 806.02 Out-of-Bounds G.

Kudos for posting the rule.

Others have hit on the reason why this needs to be activated by the TD and cannot be in effect for all DZs. There could be a DZ for OB which is more than one throw away from the tee - it would not make sense to allow players to skip that far ahead.

If you are going to be playing a sanctioned event where you know there will be a water carry off the tee, you can send the TD a note and ask for this rule to be in play for that DZ. (Also ask for a DZ if there isn't one.) Then it would be legal.

 

[uncle pennybags]

Can't that DZ rule just be built into the course rules? That way it would be active all the time. Or is that too wide reaching and thus not allowed?

 

[araytx]

Can't that DZ rule just be built into the course rules? That way it would be active all the time. Or is that too wide reaching and thus not allowed?

Which DZ rule?

because many holes, in fact many courses have no need for a DZ.

 

[BillFleming]

Can't that DZ rule just be built into the course rules? That way it would be active all the time. Or is that too wide reaching and thus not allowed?

I think the answer would be to designate the DZ (which is a tee box) as a Rec tee box and the 'normal' tee box as a Pro/AM tee box. I know Fountain Hills DCG (Arizona) has tee boxes on some holes designated/marked on sign as being for certain level of players. Hole 1 has three tee pads, one marked for Pros, one for Ams, and one for Rec.

But (based on the answers I've gotten) without the official designation of the tee pads, you can't just say "I'm throwing from this tee pad because I can't make it from the other one."

The nice part about having tee pads marked for specific divisions is that you don't have to take strokes if you play from them. For example: on the hole I asked about, the 'forward' tee is the drop zone when you go in the water from the 'regular' tee. So, I would be playing from the forward/drop zone tee and taking my third throw if it was permitted. BUT, if the TD or course designated it as a tee pad for Rec AND a drop zone....then I could play from there throwing my first throw.

 

[BillFleming]

Which DZ rule?

because many holes, in fact many courses have no need for a DZ.

I think the poster means on the hole I was asking about. The current rule is: you throw from the back tee, if your disc goes in the water you take a penalty, and proceed to the drop zone/forward tee for your next throw. The course COULD put in a rule that you can choose to start from the drop zone/forward tee by adding two penalty throws.

 

[Ahildy13]

I know which hole you're talking about, but I don't think I've ever played it with a designated drop zone. I assume you're playing from the back tee and your DZ is the shorter tee? Maybe you can save yourself a stroke and just do a layup putter shot to the shorter teepad?

 

[Steve West]

Can't that DZ rule just be built into the course rules? That way it would be active all the time. Or is that too wide reaching and thus not allowed?

Sure, that's OK. For unsanctioned play.

Excerpt from here.

QA-APP-7
Q: What if there is no Tournament Director?
A: ...the course signage should tell you in what order to play the holes, where any out-of-bounds is, and other things that are normally covered in the players' meeting or caddy book.

For sanctioned play, the TD would have to specify that the course rule is in effect for the tournament.

 

[RUSSELL]

simple solution if 806.02 Out-of-Bounds G. is not in play: just bag a piece of crap disposable disc and intentionally throw it in the drink, and proceed to the drop zone.