GOATA movements and the dg throw

dehaas

* Ace Member *
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Been dealing with some lower back and left hip issues for the last month or so. I know I have a strength imbalance between legs, which had led to some postural issues that just compound things.

Over the course of reading up and watching some videos I ran across GOATA, which is a guy who pretty much came up with his own training regiment. The interesting part to the method is that he claims he devised the idea by looking at the movements of infants, elite pro athletes, and really old people (like 70+) who are still high level athletes respectively. A super generic explanation is that you need to have pressure on the outside edges of your feet and minimize heel pressure, and not doing that limits your body’s natural ability to move and puts it at a higher risk to injury.

This video was kinda long, but I liked it because the guy doing the training is a golfer, so some of the mechanics translate over to a dg throw. I also liked it because they actually showed some of the exercises. There are a bunch of other videos out there, and haven’t obviously learned a ton about it or even started incorporating some of the exercises.

I know SW talks about internal and external rotation in various points of the throw, that’s what made this stand out. I’ve also been looking at some of Neal Hallinan’s YouTube videos. He focuses a lot on how your body naturally has a right leg dominance and how that causes postural issues and how to address them.

What I’m trying to say is: for anybody looking at cleaning up your form, if your body isn’t physically capable of moving properly you’ll probably hit a limit with what it can do. There’s probably a lot of meat and potatoes hidden in the GOATA stuff that would apply to throwing technique…or at least being aware of it might make it easier to utilize body parts that you’ve been struggling with previously.

 
Went down some interesting rabbit holes on this, especially being flat footed. I think I agree with a lot of it especially in regard to perpetual frontal plane movements like walking/running, but not sure I totally agree with it in lateral throwing movements. Inside ankle high makes sense in loading phase, but not so much driving phase.

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You can basically skip in to 11min on the first vid.




 

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Went down some interesting rabbit holes on this, especially being flat footed. I think I agree with a lot of it especially in regard to perpetual frontal plane movements like walking/running, but not sure I totally agree with it in lateral throwing movements. Inside ankle high makes sense in loading phase, but not so much driving phase.

I was going to ask you about this. Based on your lessons, we should have ankle outside knee outside hip to facilitate leverage in the drive phase. So intuitively there could be a transition to "inside ankle low" as we prepare to 3x into the weight shift. I wondered whether the foot eversion/calf extension get better leverage/less joint stress from inside ankle low or high. Looks like high level form executes it inside low as your figs show.

Was also thinking about the mechanics during & after the drive. IIRC, the plant step should receive the weight shift toe-heel, and the weight tends to start being received along the instep and into the heel with the inside ankle lower than the GOATA walking position. In the follow through phase, the weight might flow to the ball/outside of the foot and inside ankle could flow high. I think this occurs in Mcbeth's form and others' depending on the shot, I'll look closer.

Re: the GOATA crew, I'm always skeptical of shops that start out saying "Everything everyone knows is wrong. Just look at these pictures and cases I chose to support my narrative and new terminology. Now pay." That is especially the case when there is no peer-reviewed work (I looked as hard as I could for any reasonably designed study. Instead, I found no studies). However, that doesn't mean they're only selling snake oil either so I'd appreciate any good critical discussion here! And I'm a shameless self-experimenter so I'll probably be testing my walking stride in the meantime.
 
One more thing that people might find helpful, then I'll shut up and await discussion. I got curious about weight distribution & ankle during the plant. A picture is worth 1000 words, so here's a frame of Simon just before he completes the weight shift to just afterwards.

As his weight shifts, Simon's ankle remains inside ankle low and he makes contact with the plant foot toe-heel at the instep (weight coming in on the blue line in the attached figure). But if you watch in real time, you can see how the "dome" structure of the foot transiently absorbs his full weight in his plant (toward the outstep in the image on the right). That action naturally loads the way the foot is supposed to work (presuming Simple Lines has it right).

SW22 noticed that I used to plant very flat/knee inside hip (bad news for DG and the knee). I just realized that doing so persistently would be loading the calf/Achilles wrong too. It probably also explains why I sometimes felt a little plantar fasciitis in my plant foot and a tug in that calf. You can also get "jammed up" on the instep in the plant stride, whereas instead you probably want to allow the step to naturally transition from instep to load the "dome" structure of the foot.

So for DG, basically I'm just saying don't overthink it and just allow the foot to take the lateral/ground force more naturally into the plant.
 

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A picture is worth 1000 words, so here's a frame of Simon just before he completes the weight shift to just afterwards.
Just an FYI I try to always put the pics in order of the movement like the form shadow, so your pic is backwards order to the movement.
 
Just an FYI I try to always put the pics in order of the movement like the form shadow, so your pic is backwards order to the movement.

Ugh, thanks. I defaulted to left-right temporal order in haste. Wish I could edit the original post. Will remember that in the future.

To save people a minute/any confusion I've reattached in movement/form shadow order!
 

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I think I agree with a lot of it especially in regard to perpetual frontal plane movements like walking/running, but not sure I totally agree with it in lateral throwing movements. Inside ankle high makes sense in loading phase, but not so much driving phase.

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https://youtu.be/UD_y4HyltiU

Lateral movement in general, I would say. Watch any great athlete shifting side to side and on extreme changes of direction you'll see the inside of the ankle nearly slapping the floor.

I've watched a few GOATA videos but haven't seen them address any kind of lateral shift yet. Does anyone know of any videos they talk about moving sideways? I assume with the amount of detail they've studied this that they've got to have thoughts on safely shifting weight laterally.
 
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N of 1 experiment update for walking and DG:

After reading this thread and Simple Lines content, I realized that I was carrying my weight somewhat on my instep and inside ankles a bit low in daily (forward) walking. Since Friday, I cycled between carrying my weight on my outer "dome" of the foot vs. my instep at home, on sidewalks, and during a wooded DG round. I also (carefully) experimented with loading the plant in the instep and remaining there (more like "jamming") vs. letting weight move to the "dome" in the weightshift.

It has only been a couple days, but I'm shocked at how big the difference is. I feel less tension in my plantar area, knees, calves, and lower lumbar area with inside ankle high & outer dome weight loading. With the same loading walking around the course, I exited my (long and cold) DG rounds with my legs and knees feeling relatively fresh.

During my round I was less inclined to risk rolling ankles on uneven terrain. My drive leg and plant mechanics seemed to get better leverage and throws were a bit easier on my legs and more intuitive. Planting with this more natural weight progression (still with inside ankle low due to DG form as described above) through the swing seemed to further reduce any stress my plant knee has been taking. It now occurs to me that desk life has probably given me a more chronic gait problem, and that made me more vulnerable to DG injuries too. Silly bodies!

Obvious limitations abound in my silly experiment, but I'm sticking with the weight better distributed across the foot "dome" & inside ankle high for now and seeing how it goes.
 
Here's a little throwing breakdown. Interesting stuff. SW I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on this one.


I think these guys are on to something good. Their stuff is just presented in a way that is little sporadic and hard to filter through. I also believe they hold back a lot on the free info they offer so people will buy their coaching which costs big $$$.

They're also a bit closed minded and do seem to be bought into the idea that everybody's body should move the same, and don't leave much room for natural range of motion (eg. naturally duck footed vs. pigeon toed). Maybe they acknowledge more of that in personal coaching.
 
Here's a little throwing breakdown. Interesting stuff. SW I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on this one.

I think these guys are on to something good. Their stuff is just presented in a way that is little sporadic and hard to filter through. I also believe they hold back a lot on the free info they offer so people will buy their coaching which costs big $$$.

They're also a bit closed minded and do seem to be bought into the idea that everybody's body should move the same, and don't leave much room for natural range of motion (eg. naturally duck footed vs. pigeon toed). Maybe they acknowledge more of that in personal coaching.
I'm still confused on it, I agree with the plant and the load of the back foot on the outside, not sure what they are saying about the drive - is the heel going out their drive(squish the bug) or that a bounce or reaction after eversion or figure 8 pressure pattern? Does the angle of the back foot(and anatomy) make a difference? Not a big fan of of how they talk/sell and their terminology - ankle technology and body gyroscopes WTF? Seems like they are based somewhat on Anatomy Trains with their own terminology.

I don't know if Patrick Mahomes or Nolan Ryan would be goata's or woata's in their system with their drive mechanics?
 
I'm still confused on it, I agree with the plant and the load of the back foot on the outside, not sure what they are saying about the drive - is the heel going out their drive(squish the bug) or that a bounce or reaction after eversion or figure 8 pressure pattern? Does the angle of the back foot(and anatomy) make a difference? Not a big fan of of how they talk/sell and their terminology - ankle technology and body gyroscopes WTF? Seems like they are based somewhat on Anatomy Trains with their own terminology.

I don't know if Patrick Mahomes or Nolan Ryan would be goata's or woata's in their system with their drive mechanics?

Yeah, I don't think any of their novel language helps, and a lot of it seems more like "woo" to me (Michael Shermer's phrase for beliefs and concepts without evidence/explanation). I wish they were integrating more established biomechanics.
 
Yeah, I don't think any of their novel language helps, and a lot of it seems more like "woo" to me (Michael Shermer's phrase for beliefs and concepts without evidence/explanation). I wish they were integrating more established biomechanics.

The term "Woo Woo" goes back much further than Michael Shermer. Not sure if it applies here. This seems like a cross section of bro science and pseudo science. My definitions of each are as follows.

Pseudo Science: Theories that claim to be supported by the scientific method but have in fact corrupted the method via some logical fallacy. Almost always in bad faith. Example: Phrenology

Bro Science: Theories that are only supported by anecdotal experiences, for the most part by gym bros. Sometimes they accidentally hit the mark, most of the times they are bunk. Usually in good faith. Example: Bulletproof coffee, most things out of Rogan's mouth

Woo Woo: Theories that are only supported by supernatural explanation. Strong reliance on anecdotes, but these revolve around fortune telling coincidences or emotional logic. Example: Law of Attraction
 

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