How do you feel about "Island Holes"?

[Cgkdisc]

One defining criteria for an island hole I believe is where on the tee shot, even if your disc touches or flies over the island IB area but ends up OB that your only options are the drop zone or re-tee.

 

[Toro71]

I feel like any hole where say 85% of players CAN go at least 30' long (short holes, what, < 175' ?) are more relavant with significant OB penalty.

I think at least once/round, the player should be tested hard on both L/R and powered-down D accuracy.

 

[araytx]

I witnessed a water skip to a safe landing on an island hole during the Eastern Amateur Nationals in 2012. We were playing Treasure island on the Old Glory course at the Hippodrome, a card mate skipped his drive off the water onto the island and carded a 2.

This hole plays about 200' with a small(15' diameter) pond adjacent and directly in front of the basket, the drop zone is 30" away and shoots directly over the basket.

Oh, I wasn't kidding when I said that to him. I've seen probably 10-20 water skips in my short time playing. Here's one of the more famous ones (and Schwebby calls it before throwing it!):

 

[araytx]

Crooked Creek has a short hole with a small island, and a drop zone off the island, about 30' from the basket. Without mandating use of the drop zone, any shot that crosses or skips off the island would result in a very close lie, and an easy 3. That would be the "best option", but it wouldn't make the hole play particularly well.

It's a hole that's well-served by limiting the lie to the drop-zone, and with a well-placed drop zone. It produces a good spread of 2s, 3s, and 4s.

David:

I see what you're saying, but IMO, any "island" that small is still poor design. It's just too small. And I am never going to like having my shot land inbounds and then roll or skip OB and I'm not able to take the last spot inbounds (with penalty stroke) as one of my options. That could be a fluky roll depending upon the slope of the "island" toward the water/OB. Make that "island" large enough where at some places taking the last spot inbounds is really good and at some places the DZ is better. It may not play well in terms of 2s-3s-4s spread, but it's the rule (minus the tour manager exception).

All that being said, I know people like to play 'em, so I have experiemented with them. And I left all options in place and our "island" was HUGE. There were some spots on the "island" that were safe but 70-80 feet from a basket near the OB.

 

[DavidSauls]

I should footnote that the Crooked Creek hole has timbers around it, as well as a creek. It's a downhill hole so most shots are floating in, not prone to skip. The green is perhaps 50' x 35'; put a basket in the middle, get a meter relief from the edge, and almost anywhere you go O.B. is an easy putt.

I agree that it's even better if the island is big enough to have a missable putt area.

I used to agree that it offended my senses to hit on the island, skip off, and not play where it went out. After years of playing a good number of such holes, I've come to a different opinion. At least, as always, where they're well-designed.

 

[chevis]

i like the islands.
the one here has an elevated basket, so even if you make the island it's not an automatic 2. we play that if the disc goes into the island airspace then you can take it where it was last in (+1)(still a hard putt); must be conclusive that it did fly over the island. the dropzone is a hard shot though (80ft), its' also the layup area before the "water" starts, which is downhill, so laying up often goes too far. I always go for it. http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1141/8c0a6810.jpg

 

[Cgkdisc]

And I am never going to like having my shot land inbounds and then roll or skip OB and I'm not able to take the last spot inbounds (with penalty) as one of my options.

I understand not liking it but that's how it's played in ball golf. No playing the last point IB as an option. At minimum a ball landing on a BG island and rolling OB would have to come back on the other side of the water or in some cases either optionally or be required to go to a drop zone. So we're not doing anything out of line with traditional BG rules by taking away the marking on the island if your shot hits it and goes OB and requiring you to play from drop or re-tee. In most cases, TDs allow player to play from where the disc goes OB off the island when it happens on your next throws.

One practical reason for disallowing the mark on the island on a tee shot OB is the inability to many times see if a throw passed over any island IB or actually hit the island before landing OB. Better to be consistent and eliminate the last point IB option.

 

[dandaman]

JP Moseley Park has been mentioned a few times in this thread,:clap: and I thought I would weigh in my thoughts on island greens and the rules that govern them.

I mentioned JP Moseley Park because I am the one to blame for one of the holes becoming an island green. When I redesigned the course hole #11 stayed where it was because it was the only way to get from one part of the park to the other. A filler hole on every level, this hole featured absolutely no trees, a slight elevation change and only a little bit of wind. The hole by itself produced a few two's, a whole bunch of three's, and very few four's. Nothing about it made it noteworthy. It was zero risk and zero fun. So a buddy of mine and I discussed it-Why not make it an island green?

So we made a sizable island. The pin is approximately 315 ft from the long tee and we placed it towards the back of the island about 20 ft from the back edge. The front edge is reachable at 265 ft, with both right and left flanks being nearly equal with about 40 ft. separating the basket from the edge of OB on both sides. Sorry for all the outdated photos. Here is the Satellite image that shows the border of rocks.

Here are the rules for the island green at JP Moseley Park: Hole #11 plays as an island green. Successful tee shots are shots that land in the circle OR that come to rest touching any portion of a border rock. Any other variation of this qualifies as an unsuccessful tee shot. Unsuccessful tee shots will result in a one throw penalty and players have the option of re-teeing OR taking their third shot from the drop zone (recommended). The drop zone for #11 is the red tee.

The red tee (drop zone) is listed at 187 ft away from the pin. A shot of 140 ft could make the island. We make it mandatory to land on the green in order to complete the hole.

With the addition of the island we took a very boring/unremarkable/completely forgettable hole and made it something much different. Today it provides a great scoring spread, a pucker factor, and is often talked about after the round.

I am certainly glad that every course can't boast of having an island green-and I would even go as far to say that there shouldn't be too many of them in a particular region because of the possibility of oversaturation. That being said, I absolutely believe that island greens have a purpose in disc golf and that they can make an otherwise boring hole into something much more.

It kind of bothers me that there are variations of how OB is played for island greens. The disc is either safe or it's not. If it's not safe than there should be a drop zone. A drop zone is necessary because it takes away some of the ambiguity of judgment calls made within a group.

 

[heartman]

The red tee (drop zone) is listed at 187 ft away from the pin. A shot of 140 ft could make the island. We make it mandatory to land on the green in order to complete the hole.

Red tee as drop zone is much easier than drop zone on the path ... that is a rough distance that I just can't seem to hit the green at :gross: :wall:

 

[Cgkdisc]

The JP Moseley hole needs a closer drop zone in the 80 ft neighborhood so players can absolutely get to the green on their 5th throw after missing from 187 feet. There are many island holes where the original tee is at 187 feet to start with. Also, I suggest that if the pin is not in the middle that it be shifted to the front of the island not back. That way you have the opportunity to fly by the pin chain high and still land inbounds but maybe have a 40 ft comeback putt with perhaps less than 20 ft behind the pin in that direction. When the pin is in back, it's not worth the risk to run the pin.

 

[heartman]

The JP Moseley hole needs a closer drop zone in the 80 ft neighborhood so players can absolutely get to the green on their 5th throw after missing from 187 feet. There are many island holes where the original tee is at 187 feet to start with. Also, I suggest that if the pin is not in the middle that it be shifted to the front of the island not back. That way you have the opportunity to fly by the pin chain high and still land inbounds but maybe have a 40 ft comeback putt with perhaps less than 20 ft behind the pin in that direction. When the pin is in back, it's not worth the risk to run the pin.

There's a drop zone from the path that is sometimes used for tournaments (depending on who is TDing) and it's an awkward 80' uphill jump putt.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Aah, good, especially for tourneys.

 

[Romans 5-8]

Love em

 

[araytx]

i like the islands.
the one here has an elevated basket, so even if you make the island it's not an automatic 2. we play that if the disc goes into the island airspace then you can take it where it was last in (+1)(still a hard putt); must be conclusive that it did fly over the island. the dropzone is a hard shot though (80ft), its' also the layup area before the "water" starts, which is downhill, so laying up often goes too far. I always go for it. http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1141/8c0a6810.jpg

That sounds fair to me, because the option of the last spot inbounds was not taken away. You're not forced to the Drop Zone.

I should footnote that the Crooked Creek hole has timbers around it, as well as a creek. It's a downhill hole so most shots are floating in, not prone to skip. The green is perhaps 50' x 35'; put a basket in the middle, get a meter relief from the edge, and almost anywhere you go O.B. is an easy putt.

I agree that it's even better if the island is big enough to have a missable putt area.

I used to agree that it offended my senses to hit on the island, skip off, and not play where it went out. After years of playing a good number of such holes, I've come to a different opinion. At least, as always, where they're well-designed.

To me the issue is the "obsession" here (and hence what I do not see as good design) with placing the basket at or near the middle of that green. Why not place it strategically well to the short side of the green (closest to tee), maybe 10 ft from the OB line? That way there'll be 40-45 ft putts which aren't gimmes which keep the risk v. reward factor. And those will exist whether or not you get to throw from a DZ or the last spot inbounds. Plus if you take the risk (especially if it's on the short side closest to the tee box) of running it from the tee, then three, possibly, four, clear things can happen -- 1) you can park the hole, netting a sure deuce; 2) you can hit inbounds near the pin but skip or roll OB near the pin, netting a sure 3; or 3) you could come up short, never passing over the island which will only leave a re-tee, throw from last inbounds (which is now still close to the tee box), or drop zone -- all likely netting a 4 or more. I guess rarely the risk reward thrower would hit inbounds near the pin and find a way to roll way far from the pin, either safe or OB, but that would be very rare in my set up. In my design you still get your scoring spread, your risk v. reward clearly still exists (and it's not just teeing off thinking "please God just get it in the island)", etc. +++ plus if you sometimes play conservative like me, you could aim for the middle of the island knowing you'll likely end up with a 30+ft death putt toward OB, still play for the layup, and card a safe 3.

All that could be done with a simple design change and not taking away all three options like all other OB shots have.

I understand not liking it but that's how it's played in ball golf. No playing the last point IB as an option.... So we're not doing anything out of line with traditional BG rules by taking away the marking on the island if your shot hits it and goes OB and requiring you to play from drop or re-tee.

One practical reason for disallowing the mark on the island on a tee shot OB is the inability to many times see if a throw passed over any island IB or actually hit the island before landing OB. Better to be consistent and eliminate the last point IB option.

Not knowing ball golf rules I'll take your word for it. But why then is last point inbounds an option for every other OB shot, but not on "island" holes? That to me is where the inconsistency lies. Either it's a rule every time you tee off or not. The issue about ruling discrepancies is weak also. That's always a case where the group has to make such a ruling a long way from where the group stands. Happens all the time.

JP Moseley Park has been mentioned a few times in this thread,:clap: and I thought I would weigh in my thoughts on island greens and the rules that govern them.

I mentioned JP Moseley Park because I am the one to blame for one of the holes becoming an island green. When I redesigned the course hole #11 stayed where it was because it was the only way to get from one part of the park to the other. A filler hole on every level, this hole featured absolutely no trees, a slight elevation change and only a little bit of wind. The hole by itself produced a few two's, a whole bunch of three's, and very few four's. Nothing about it made it noteworthy. It was zero risk and zero fun. So a buddy of mine and I discussed it-Why not make it an island green?

So we made a sizable island. The pin is approximately 315 ft from the long tee and we placed it towards the back of the island about 20 ft from the back edge. The front edge is reachable at 265 ft, with both right and left flanks being nearly equal with about 40 ft. separating the basket from the edge of OB on both sides. Sorry for all the outdated photos. Here is the Satellite image that shows the border of rocks.

Here are the rules for the island green at JP Moseley Park: Hole #11 plays as an island green. Successful tee shots are shots that land in the circle OR that come to rest touching any portion of a border rock. Any other variation of this qualifies as an unsuccessful tee shot. Unsuccessful tee shots will result in a one throw penalty and players have the option of re-teeing OR taking their third shot from the drop zone (recommended). The drop zone for #11 is the red tee.

The red tee (drop zone) is listed at 187 ft away from the pin. A shot of 140 ft could make the island. We make it mandatory to land on the green in order to complete the hole.

With the addition of the island we took a very boring/unremarkable/completely forgettable hole and made it something much different. Today it provides a great scoring spread, a pucker factor, and is often talked about after the round.

I am certainly glad that every course can't boast of having an island green-and I would even go as far to say that there shouldn't be too many of them in a particular region because of the possibility of oversaturation. That being said, I absolutely believe that island greens have a purpose in disc golf and that they can make an otherwise boring hole into something much more.

It kind of bothers me that there are variations of how OB is played for island greens. The disc is either safe or it's not. If it's not safe than there should be a drop zone. A drop zone is necessary because it takes away some of the ambiguity of judgment calls made within a group.

I have played Moseley and I played it back when the DZ was on that path just across the road at the top of the picture you gave. The rules, just like you wrote above, I see as "confusing." I have to interpret what you mean. You state that "....successful tee shots are shots that land in the circle OR that come to rest touching any portion of a border rock...." Here's what that sounds like to me. If my tee shot lands inside the circle (island) then that shot is good (successful) whether it stays in the island or not. If I happen to skip or roll out, then I can take my penalty stroke and mark where I last went in. You may not mean that, but that's what your written rule said ... a tee shot landing (to me that means where it first hits) inside the island is successful. I also struggle with a rock being the OB border and your written requirement that the disc be actually touching a rock when it comes to rest. What if it finds a roll that ends up wholly on the ground, not touching any rock but clearly it's spot is under one of those rocks deemed as "safe" (if you look straight down). Unless every border rock in completely in the ground that might happen, and it seems unfair if that shot is ruled OB.

The JP Moseley hole needs a closer drop zone in the 80 ft neighborhood so players can absolutely get to the green on their 5th throw after missing from 187 feet. There are many island holes where the original tee is at 187 feet to start with. Also, I suggest that if the pin is not in the middle that it be shifted to the front of the island not back. That way you have the opportunity to fly by the pin chain high and still land inbounds but maybe have a 40 ft comeback putt with perhaps less than 20 ft behind the pin in that direction. When the pin is in back, it's not worth the risk to run the pin.

Obviously I 100% agree. With both things. I know plenty of Ams (men and women) who'd still struggle if there was any wind at all with the 187-ft DZ shot. Also, these type of "island" holes are better suited to a pin placement that is off-center and to me the front part of the island is better. PLUS -- any artificial "island" doesn't necessarily have to have a circle or a near-circular ellipse as its shape. But different "island" holes could have other pin placements besides dead center and then you wouldn't have to take away the last spot inbounds.
​

All those being said, I never object to these holes at a tourney nor complain about them ... I just don't like them. I simply don't think taking a rule away on one hole that's available on every other hole is equitable or fair.

 

[Smigles]

I like islands.

I love double islands

And then there is the best thing, the reverse island around the basket Donk your putt and you are OB We have one hole on our annual tournament with a 20 foot reverse island

 

[Cgkdisc]

Not knowing ball golf rules I'll take your word for it. But why then is last point inbounds an option for every other OB shot, but not on "island" holes? That to me is where the inconsistency lies. Either it's a rule every time you tee off or not. The issue about ruling discrepancies is weak also. That's always a case where the group has to make such a ruling a long way from where the group stands. Happens all the time.

There are many places where taking the last point inbounds should not be used in lieu of specifying a drop zone. The typical place where drop zones are superior are holes where there's a long run of OB on the right or left side parallel to the fairway where it's difficult to tell exactly where a player's disc flight was last inbounds, even with a spotter. In addition, OB where it's too far from the tee to see where or whether a shot was inbounds such as island holes also play more fairly with drop zones. Fairness and consistent rulings is the main purpose for drop zones. The reasons you don't see them used more often is simply lack of design knowledge that it's a good choice in certain situations and/or cost to create permanent drop zones, ideally a concrete pad.

 

[gdub58]

I understand not liking it but that's how it's played in ball golf. No playing the last point IB as an option. At minimum a ball landing on a BG island and rolling OB would have to come back on the other side of the water or in some cases either optionally or be required to go to a drop zone. So we're not doing anything out of line with traditional BG rules by taking away the marking on the island if your shot hits it and goes OB and requiring you to play from drop or re-tee. In most cases, TDs allow player to play from where the disc goes OB off the island when it happens on your next throws.

While this is accurate in principal, it is not applicable to how ball golf courses are designed, so the comparison doesn't really work.

In ball golf OB is always stroke and distance (as are lost balls), but you will never find an island that is surrounded by OB. Instead, there are regular hazards and lateral hazards, each with their own rules regarding drops. Island holes (like #17 at TPC Sawgrass) almost always have defined drop zones since the hazard rules would likely have you hitting your third shot from the teeing area, which would lead to the same sort of "Tin Cup" frustration that we agree should be avoided on holes like the one at JP Moseley.

In general, larger water hazards guarding greens often have drop zones as it can be difficult to accurately assess where the ball last crossed into the hazard. Also, there is none of the "well, the ball flew over the green into the water so I can drop it on the green".

That absolutely shouldn't exist in disc golf either when there is an island green. If it lands on and skips off, sure, but if it doesn't touch down in bounds the next throw should be from a drop zone.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Yes, ball golf has both OB and hazards which are handled differently whereas disc golf has used the catchall term "OB" to cover both the hazard and OB situations in disc golf. In many cases, our OB is played similar to ball golf lateral hazard rule options although we allow marking on the target side of the hazard when that was the last point inbounds.

I suspect our rules were originally set this way for simplicity, speed of play and being less punitive than throw and distance OB penalties used in ball golf. As we've become more sophisticated over the years in understanding the nuances and risk/reward aspects of disc golf design, including throwing farther, we're moving toward emulating ball golf rules and risk/reward configurations like island holes and incorporating elements that make them work such as drop zones.

 

[optidiscic]

I use drop zones on 2 holes on my course

1 is an island without water and the rule is wherever the disc comes to rest thus a shot can skip from inbounds and go to the DZ

the other is a peninsula over a creek wherever the disc comes to rest determines your lie even if u hit the basket and plink oob you go to the DZ

experienced players mocked me and criticized my rules but in the end there is no more arguments about fly over oob or my disc hit that leaf on the tree then went oob thus i get a drop in 3
no longer is the strategy to throw a driver at the green and argue where my disc went out

what the DZ has done is eliminate arguments which were typically won by experienced or intimidating players and equaled thevplaying field based on rules and skills rather than bullying and lawyering skills

Clearly defined oob dz islands etc actually demand you execute a shot rather than manipulate the players on your card

I think DG needs more of them actually

 

[sisyphus]

Love 'em & hate 'em at the same time. We inadvertently came upon a FUNdraiser tourney at Flat Rocks where they'd painted all sorts of artificial OB, including a 'doughnut' island hole (on 8, I think it was) similar to Riney B's hole 11. All in good fun, I thought those made the shots challenging, but not gut-wrenching.

An island in the water, with the real chance of losing a disc, often frustrates me as much as a water carry without a safe landing zone. Love 'em if I've got the shot, but the anxiety!

In between are the creek-surrounded islands like those mentioned at Idlewild (3, 11, 15 & 16). In a tourney, it's the anxiety of losing a stroke, and forcing smart decision making regarding your skills that day. In a casual round, the anxiety might come in deciding just how muddy you might get going in after your errant disc. Fortunately, after almost talking myself into skipping the hole, I recently made the right choice in a casual round at Rainbow City on hole 3 - for an ace!

And no matter what the island is like, the rules should be consistent. An earlier poster mentioned skipping in from the artificial OB to a safe lie. Being penalized for that is just wrong! :thmbdown: