How many penalty strokes do we give him?

[Dan Ensor]

Bob Bobberson throws his drive ob (everyone believes). He throws his next shot from the last ib spot. It is then discovered that the original drive was in bounds, not out. No provisional was called. Do we:

A: Consider the extra throw a "presumed" provisional, even though it was not called as a provisional? (No penalty)

B: Give Bob a stroke for a "practice throw", play from original drive? (1 stroke for practice throw)

C: Call the first shot ob (the entire group was in agreement before the second throw (third stroke)), and have Bob play from his "last ib" spot? (1 stroke for ob)

D: The marker laid down and played from is the same as playing from the wrong disc. Play from the original drive. (1 stroke for misplay)

E: Op's an idiot, AND didn't include the obvious answer in the poll.

 

[DavidSauls]

It depends, in part, on when the error is discovered. May we presume that it's discovered before any other throws are made?

I don't think you can have a "presumed provisional". If not declared in advance, and agreed to by a majority of the group (except in a rules dispute), it's not a provisional.

 

[krupicka]

This happened at IL States last month, so the rule is still fresh.

If no subsequent throws have been made after
the misplayed throw, the player shall continue
play from the correct lie and be assessed a one-
throw penalty for the misplay

 

[DavidSauls]

I've always wondered---is that subsequent throws by the subject player, or anyone in his group?

 

[Three Putt]

I've always wondered---is that subsequent throws by the subject player, or anyone in his group?

I always read that as subsequent throws by the subject player. Why would it matter if somebody else had already thrown or not?

 

[MrFixIt]

I voted Option "E" because I don't know the answer and am feeling frisky.

 

[sneakytiki]

I think its as simple as saying they played from the wrong lie. One stroke.

My question would be, If they took another shot after reteeing before realizing the first wasn't OB, then what would happen? 2 strokes?

 

[DG_player]

What does it take to declare a provisional, do you have to explicitly state "this is a provisional throw", or is something along the lines of "I think that's OB, I'm going to throw another just in case" adequate?

It really comes down to what was said and whether the play group agrees that a provisional was adequately declared.

 

[juju]

Give him a do-over. It's a friendly game.

 

[Sir Puttsalot]

What does it take to declare a provisional, do you have to explicitly state "this is a provisional throw", or is something along the lines of "I think that's OB, I'm going to throw another just in case" adequate?

It really comes down to what was said and whether the play group agrees that a provisional was adequately declared.

Good question. I had a brain fart moment sometime ago and couldn't recollect the word "provisional", but took the time to explain the concept to my group and it was clear that I was not throwing an additional practice shot.

 

[Jax11]

Good question. I had a brain fart moment sometime ago and couldn't recollect the word "provisional", but took the time to explain the concept to my group and it was clear that I was not throwing an additional practice shot.

Must declare what the provisional is for as well.

For example if i think I am OB on a shot that I will have to re-tee from I will state, "This provisional is for if my first shot is OB, so I do not have to walk back and re-tee. If my first drive is in bounds I will be playing that shot regardless of the result of this provisional, even if it aces."

Making sure the whole group is crystal clear about the details of your provisional makes things go a lot smoother.

 

[Dan Ensor]

If you call a provisional, it is called for any thing a provisional can be used for. You have to specifically say it's not for something if you don't want it to be used.

So if I throw one towards ob, but it might just be lost, 1 provisional covers both, unless I say "This provisional is for a lost disc. If it's ob, I'm taking it from the spot up there."

So as long as you call a provisional, you don't have to say anything more. Doesn't matter if you lost your disc, went ob, of missed a mando; you're playing from your provisional.


If he holed out from the last ib spot, it seems like the mislplay would be a 2 stroke penalty, even though it seems like the spirit of the rule is "if you move the mark, you get 2 strokes" and the mark still would be in the correct spot.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I always read that as subsequent throws by the subject player. Why would it matter if somebody else had already thrown or not?

I would assume same player as well. The answer's obvious if there are no other players. Now suppose there are. Barring intereference and such, why should what they do have any impact on your score?

 

[Grungedude42]

How could a disc placed in the last IB position be declared a provisional of any sort? I am under the impression that a provisional throw would have to be actually thrown from the previous lie.

If the group had agreed that the first was OB, and it was later found that the drive hadn't gone OB, but the player had proceeded as if the disc had been OB, I'd say the hole should be scored as played, with a single penalty stroke for the OB shot, and then as normal. Kinda the same principal as you can't go back after the tourney, find a disc that had been lost in deep brush, and finish the hole and change your score for the round in which you lost the disc. Once the group reaches consensus, and the next shot has been played, finding that the assumed OB drive was actually IB is irrelevant. Pick up the original disc, score the hole according to the decision made by the group. Am I that far off?

 

[Dan Ensor]

How could a disc placed in the last IB position be declared a provisional of any sort? I am under the impression that a provisional throw would have to be actually thrown from the previous lie.

If the group had agreed that the first was OB, and it was later found that the drive hadn't gone OB, but the player had proceeded as if the disc had been OB, I'd say the hole should be scored as played, with a single penalty stroke for the OB shot, and then as normal. Kinda the same principal as you can't go back after the tourney, find a disc that had been lost in deep brush, and finish the hole and change your score for the round in which you lost the disc. Once the group reaches consensus, and the next shot has been played, finding that the assumed OB drive was actually IB is irrelevant. Pick up the original disc, score the hole according to the decision made by the group. Am I that far off?

I don't think you are (far off). In or out of bounds is a group decision, right? If it's made, it's made ...

You can play a provisional from the last ib spot though. "Hey guys, that might be ob; it'll be quicker for me to play a provisional from here in case." You don't have to play the provisional as a re-tee if it's only a question of ob or not. Provisionals only have to be played from the previous lie if it might be lost.

I'm fairly certain you could play 2 provisionals in some cases (a re-tee in case of lost disc, then last ib if it's found ob) and it's possible you could play 3 or more; one from every spot you may need to throw from depending on which OBs or mandos have been missed.

 

[JC17393]

How could a disc placed in the last IB position be declared a provisional of any sort? I am under the impression that a provisional throw would have to be actually thrown from the previous lie.

It is absolutely possible and allowable to throw a provisional from the last point in-bounds.

Best example is if you have a situation in which the throw in question crossed into the OB area early in its flight and you are unsure if the disc completely cleared it and landed safe on the other side. So a provisional from the last in-bounds point could be thrown in order to save walking back around the OB area after the original disc was found in the OB area.

In that case however, if the disc turns out to be lost, the provisional from the last in-bounds point could not be used and one would still have to trek back to the previous lie to re-throw. Though one could argue that having seen the disc cross into the OB area, there is "reasonable evidence" that the disc is OB rather than lost anyway, thus allowing the provisional to stand.

 

[Picked_Up]

Bob Bobberson throws his drive ob (everyone believes). He throws his next shot from the last ib spot. It is then discovered that the original drive was in bounds, not out. No provisional was called.

804.04 Out-of-Bounds

C. A disc that cannot be found is considered to be out-of bounds if there is reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within an out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc is considered lost and play proceeds according to rule 804.05.

804.05 Lost Disc

A. A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen. Any player in the group or an official may begin the timing of the three minutes, and must inform the group that the timing has begun. All players in the group must assist in searching for the disc. The disc shall be declared lost upon expiration of the three minutes

B. A player whose disc is declared lost shall receive one penalty throw. The next throw shall be made from the previous lie.

So I picked "E" because it is a couple of violations but still result in a one stroke penalty

If he refuses to look for the disc, it is the same thing as considering the disc lost. In this instance he should be taking his stroke and throwing his next shot from his last approximate lie, not the last spot inbounds(throwing three from the tee). Same thing applies if it went ob and you couldnt find it after a 3 min search, at which point it is considered a lost disc.

Playing the shot from where he played it is a misplay and he should be taking his stroke and playing from the last correct lie (teebox).

He could (read:should) have called a provisional to speed up play and taken the shot to be played in the event that his disc was not found. This way he was covered in the event that you found his disc in the fairway... provided it was before the three minute clock expired.

The only confusion I can see is: is the throw that resulted in the misplay occuring after the initial rules violation. If so than an additional stroke should be added for a grand total of two penalty strokes... and he should still be throwing from the teebox/lie that started all of this.

If I missed anything please let me know.

 

[geoblime]

What I'm wondering is how you get to the last known spot in bounds, take a shot, and then find it inbounds somewhere else. I know this can happen but usually the group has a pretty good idea where the disc came to rest.

Basically you play your first shot with a one stroke penalty. Could help or hinder depending on where the first shot ended up.

 

[geoblime]

804.04 Out-of-Bounds

C. A disc that cannot be found is considered to be out-of bounds if there is reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within an out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc is considered lost and play proceeds according to rule 804.05.


If he refuses to look for the disc, it is the same thing as considering the disc lost. In this instance he should be taking his stroke and throwing his next shot from his last approximate lie, not the last spot inbounds(throwing three from the tee). Same thing applies if it went ob and you couldnt find it after a 3 min search, at which point it is considered a lost disc.

Playing the shot from where he played it is a misplay and he should be taking his stroke and playing from the last correct lie (teebox).

If I missed anything please let me know.

This is not correct. The OP clearly stated the group assumed (with enough evidence) the disc went O.B. Thus, the disc is considered Out Of Bounds, not lost and played from last place in bounds.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Geo:
He threw his shot over a baseball field; last spot ib was 300' from the basket and disc. It was never searched for; as soon as he got to the green, he saw it lying in the fairway. Everyone thought it laid down before the fence (and it may have; there was an opening in the fence near there).

Picked-up:
The disc was never searched for, so 804.04 C doesn't seem to apply. The disc was not lost, so 804.05 doesn't apply.

If we are using 804.04 C, then it's simple: Play from the last ib spot, take a stroke for ob. That assumes that "everyone thought so" is reasonable evidence it was ob, and also assumes that finding the disc immediately after doesn't superced the evidence of "everyone thought so".