How to Properly throw with the "Double Move"

Thank you for clarifying! This is definitely gonna help me progress. Lol
I like how we can see a really good representation of his anchor and pressure.
The arm is back, the leg is back to help him counter/resist the effort he's put into the disc.

They are not swinging through causing him to over rotate. he's just a solid hunk there hucking 700 feet.
 
I like how we can see a really good representation of his anchor and pressure.
The arm is back, the leg is back to help him counter/resist the effort he's put into the disc.

They are not swinging through causing him to over rotate. he's just a solid hunk there hucking 700 feet.
What is it called when you bring the off arm in before you start the pull through, just "good off arm timing"? Seems like most big arms do this and I thought "double move" was the term that came to be used to describe this.

This timing seems to more deeply load up the oblique sling compared to starting to pull through at the same time as bringing the off arm.
 
What is it called when you bring the off arm in before you start the pull through, just "good off arm timing"? Seems like most big arms do this and I thought "double move" was the term that came to be used to describe this.

This timing seems to more deeply load up the oblique sling compared to starting to pull through at the same time as bringing the off arm.
Yeah it seems to me the off arm is probably not essential, but is still additive. I don't say this as an authority or anything, it just looks like - at a minimum - the off arm should come in at the same time as the throwing arm. However practically all the pros look like they're prefacing the throw with the off arm before the throwing arm starts. And in a lot of cases that off arm is coming in before a) the plant, and b) peak extension. Even on a lot of upshots, though I saw a few times this weekend (Chess Invitational) where it looked deliberate that the off arm wasn't used for shorter upshots. So I gather that the off arm can definitely help, and maybe it's providing a touch more power, or maybe it's a timing thing that improves the throw.
 
Yeah it seems to me the off arm is probably not essential, but is still additive. I don't say this as an authority or anything, it just looks like - at a minimum - the off arm should come in at the same time as the throwing arm. However practically all the pros look like they're prefacing the throw with the off arm before the throwing arm starts. And in a lot of cases that off arm is coming in before a) the plant, and b) peak extension. Even on a lot of upshots, though I saw a few times this weekend (Chess Invitational) where it looked deliberate that the off arm wasn't used for shorter upshots. So I gather that the off arm can definitely help, and maybe it's providing a touch more power, or maybe it's a timing thing that improves the throw.
Yeah, it definitely seems to not be used as aggressively for slower touchy control shots, which makes sense because it feels pretty explosive sometimes and would be easy to overdo a touchy shot.

I've focused on trying "off arm first cue" 2x now during net sessions and both times I've broken my speed PR by 2 mph with that as the main focus despite probably not even achieving the timing I was going for, but just getting a bit closer to it.

If you are not driving your elbow soon enough and / or prematurely rotating your upper body so that your arm is left behind too much and your shoulder angle is collapsing as a consequence, I can see trying to do this potentially worsening that issue or making it harder to work on it though.
 
Thread 'The SW22 Swim Move' The SW22 Swim Move

Sheep's post is just him taking the piss @ slingshot. With slingshot putting too much emphasis on driving the off arm in and "squish the bug" with the back leg to drive a more "spinny" throw, compared to the lateral motion we're after.

I won't elaborate too much, since the post above is a GOOD read for people wondering about the off arm.
 
Thread 'The SW22 Swim Move' The SW22 Swim Move

Sheep's post is just him taking the piss @ slingshot. With slingshot putting too much emphasis on driving the off arm in and "squish the bug" with the back leg to drive a more "spinny" throw, compared to the lateral motion we're after.

I won't elaborate too much, since the post above is a GOOD read for people wondering about the off arm.

Correct.
Off arm is a resistance move, not an active move.

It's an anchor.
 
Yeah, it definitely seems to not be used as aggressively for slower touchy control shots, which makes sense because it feels pretty explosive sometimes and would be easy to overdo a touchy shot.

I've focused on trying "off arm first cue" 2x now during net sessions and both times I've broken my speed PR by 2 mph with that as the main focus despite probably not even achieving the timing I was going for, but just getting a bit closer to it.

If you are not driving your elbow soon enough and / or prematurely rotating your upper body so that your arm is left behind too much and your shoulder angle is collapsing as a consequence, I can see trying to do this potentially worsening that issue or making it harder to work on it though.
To the extent that there appears to be an off-arm "activation," I would imagine is mostly a visual "trick." Pushing your shoulders forward from the trail side seems that would open the shoulders too early/much. What's happening here is that we use the off-arm to help rotate back, then we drop it so it doesn't slow down the rest of the throw. This timing makes it appear as if the off-arm is somehow triggering the upper body, but in reality it's just correlation, not causation. (In fact, there's another thread around here that links to convo where Drew Gibson says he just drops his arm and it doesn't factor into his swing actively)

As SW22's Swim Move shows, the off-arm movement can be quite the opposite of what Slingshot is proposing. If you look at GG, Paige Pierce, and Juliana Korver, for example, they actually compress the shoulders first, then use the off arm to expand out on the throw and balance the forward momentum
 
To the extent that there appears to be an off-arm "activation," I would imagine is mostly a visual "trick." Pushing your shoulders forward from the trail side seems that would open the shoulders too early/much. What's happening here is that we use the off-arm to help rotate back, then we drop it so it doesn't slow down the rest of the throw. This timing makes it appear as if the off-arm is somehow triggering the upper body, but in reality it's just correlation, not causation. (In fact, there's another thread around here that links to convo where Drew Gibson says he just drops his arm and it doesn't factor into his swing actively)

As SW22's Swim Move shows, the off-arm movement can be quite the opposite of what Slingshot is proposing. If you look at GG, Paige Pierce, and Juliana Korver, for example, they actually compress the shoulders first, then use the off arm to expand out on the throw and balance the forward momentum
What do you mean compress the shoulder first?

I have an issue with rotating shoulders too soon that predates testing bringing the off arm in before starting the elbow drive, but as I've been practicing not rotating the shoulders too soon with more focus on driving the elbow first instead, I'm letting the rotation come after, it doesn't feel like bringing the off arm in first is interfering with this, it just feels like it is increasing tension in the upper back in a good way, whether I go in front or more behind like GG, when going behind I feel the added tension more from the downward part of the off arm movement.
 
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What do you mean compress the shoulder first?

I have an issue with rotating shoulders too soon that predates testing bringing the off arm in before starting the elbow drive, but as I've been practicing not rotating the shoulders too soon with more focus on driving the elbow first instead, I'm letting the rotation come after, it doesn't feel like bringing the off arm in first is interfering with this, it just feels like it is increasing tension in the upper back in a good way, whether I go in front or more behind like GG, when going behind I feel the added tension more from the downward part of the off arm movement.
GG the easiest to observe. If you watch his backswing, his off-arm comes forward (compressing the shoulders forward) and as he throws, his off-arm drops and extends backward through the swing and follow through. JK and PP do this, too, but it's a bit more subtle. Think butterfly stroke:

Butterfly_stroke_without_text.gif


Throwing open curtains is maybe a better example:
opening-the-curtain-daniel-labelle.gif


It sounds like you're doing the right thing, though. You definitely want to use the off-arm to help the shoulders rotate back, and then drop the off-arm before starting the swing. What GG, JK, Drew, and others are doing - additionally - is towards the end of the swing, they're using the off-arm to push back against the momentum of the swing.

There was a period of time where Slingshot, OT, and others were suggesting that the off-arm is used to push or trigger the shoulders to move forward when it's pretty much the opposite. OT has changed their position, but I think Slingshot still teaches this (I don't pay attention to his channel much, so he may have changed his mind). I believe what they were observing (typically in slow mo vids - which can be misleading) was that the motion to bring the arm down was triggering the swing, but in reality, it was getting the off-arm in position to push back later in the throw as well a pulling the arm tight to speed up rotation

The main takeaway is that the off-arm doesn't start/push the shoulders but instead acts as a counterbalance to lead arm during the throw.

Here's a slow motion vid of GG:
 
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GG the easiest to observe. If you watch his backswing, his off-arm comes forward (compressing the shoulders forward) and as he throws, his off-arm drops and extends backward through the swing and follow through. JK and PP do this, too, but it's a bit more subtle. Think butterfly stroke:

Butterfly_stroke_without_text.gif


Throwing open curtains is maybe a better example:
opening-the-curtain-daniel-labelle.gif


It sounds like you're doing the right thing, though. You definitely want to use the off-arm to help the shoulders rotate back, and then drop the off-arm before starting the swing. What GG, JK, Drew, and others are doing - additionally - is towards the end of the swing, they're using the off-arm to push back against the momentum of the swing.

There was a period of time where Slingshot, OT, and others were suggesting that the off-arm is used to push or trigger the shoulders to move forward when it's pretty much the opposite. OT has changed their position, but I think Slingshot still teaches this (I don't pay attention to his channel much, so he may have changed his mind). I believe what they were observing (typically in slow mo vids - which can be misleading) was that the motion to bring the arm down was triggering the swing, but in reality, it was getting the off-arm in position to push back later in the throw as well a pulling the arm tight to speed up rotation

The main takeaway is that the off-arm doesn't start/push the shoulders but instead acts as a counterbalance to lead arm during the throw.

Here's a slow motion vid of GG:

Yeah I definitely use the off arm to help coil back before I try to bring it in.

GG definitely looks like he starts the elbow drive without waiting for the off arm to come in like I thought I saw in other's form.

My off arm wasn't terrible before, it was fairly close to the body, but not as tight as it could be. I'd be surprised if that bringing it in that final bit closer is what results in all extra power I feel. Maybe it's simply the act of bringing it in more aggressively that helps get me in a more explosive mindset / nervous system related stuff.

I still can't help but feel there is some extra tension being created though on the right side of the body that helps the pull through be more powerful / explosive. Simply holding the throwing arm extended while coiled and then bringing the off arm in and down without moving the throwing arm clearly and reproducibly creates a feeling of added loading / tension in my upper back that feels like it makes the throwing arm want to get going, but people here seem to de-emphasize that aspect / not bring it up which is hard to understand since it clearly feels like it helps.
 
Yeah I definitely use the off arm to help coil back before I try to bring it in.

GG definitely looks like he starts the elbow drive without waiting for the off arm to come in like I thought I saw in other's form.

My off arm wasn't terrible before, it was fairly close to the body, but not as tight as it could be. I'd be surprised if that bringing it in that final bit closer is what results in all extra power I feel. Maybe it's simply the act of bringing it in more aggressively that helps get me in a more explosive mindset / nervous system related stuff.

I still can't help but feel there is some extra tension being created though on the right side of the body that helps the pull through be more powerful / explosive. Simply holding the throwing arm extended while coiled and then bringing the off arm in and down without moving the throwing arm clearly and reproducibly creates a feeling of added loading / tension in my upper back that feels like it makes the throwing arm want to get going, but people here seem to de-emphasize that aspect / not bring it up which is hard to understand since it clearly feels like it helps.
The main thing to remember is that everyone is different and needs different cues. For example, I have never thought about my off-arm; I "hold-the-drink" naturally (I never straighten my arm out; I crank back, but keep my arm bent ~90 degrees as I pull it tight to my body - it looks like I'm holding a drink or hugging my waist). It doesn't necessarily mean I'm "optimized," but it's working and not detracting from my throw.

Blake at DGR used to mention all the time that we (the forum members) spent too much time looking at the differences in form. Instead, we should pay more attention to what players are doing similarly. Even though GG starts his off-arm high, and Drew punches down; they both get to the same place and push back against the throw
 
Blake at DGR used to mention all the time that we (the forum members) spent too much time looking at the differences in form. Instead, we should pay more attention to what players are doing similarly. Even though GG starts his off-arm high, and Drew punches down; they both get to the same place and push back against the throw
I can agree with that. Compare and contrast are both valuable.
 
Yeah I definitely use the off arm to help coil back before I try to bring it in.

GG definitely looks like he starts the elbow drive without waiting for the off arm to come in like I thought I saw in other's form.

My off arm wasn't terrible before, it was fairly close to the body, but not as tight as it could be. I'd be surprised if that bringing it in that final bit closer is what results in all extra power I feel. Maybe it's simply the act of bringing it in more aggressively that helps get me in a more explosive mindset / nervous system related stuff.

I still can't help but feel there is some extra tension being created though on the right side of the body that helps the pull through be more powerful / explosive. Simply holding the throwing arm extended while coiled and then bringing the off arm in and down without moving the throwing arm clearly and reproducibly creates a feeling of added loading / tension in my upper back that feels like it makes the throwing arm want to get going, but people here seem to de-emphasize that aspect / not bring it up which is hard to understand since it clearly feels like it helps.
It sounds more to me like your timing issue is because your focused on over rotating your upper body based on you constantly using "elbow drive."

Unless you're trying to do the double move, upper body timing is generally by people trying to throw the upper body around vs drive with the brace.
 
and Drew punches down; t

Just so you're aware, Drew has publicly stated he doesn't punch down.
He says he lets his arm relax and fall.


Blake at DGR used to mention all the time that we (the forum members) spent too much time looking at the differences in form. Instead, we should pay more attention to what players are doing similarly. Even though GG starts his off-arm high, and Drew punches down; they both get to the same place and push back against the throw

Blake isn't necessarily wrong. The problem is when we take guys like simon and drew and compare them to average players and say "youre doing it wrong." And that's where this has all headed for some people out there teaching.

It's important to understand what the different mechanics are doing, see who is doing it and how they are all doing it the same or different. But, in the end the most important thing is to not over complicate the swing and keep it simple.
 
Just so you're aware, Drew has publicly stated he doesn't punch down.
He says he lets his arm relax and fall.
That's right; I mentioned it in an earlier post, but I should have stated it better. What I was trying to illustrate (very poorly) was the difference between Drew dropping his arm vs. GG lifting his arm, but getting (basically) to the same place
 

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