How wooded do we like it?

[Cgkdisc]

It's been my experience that for a course that starts and ends at the same elevation, 500 feet from highest to lowest point on the course is about as much as players can handle when walking 18 holes. It's even tougher at high elevation like Snowbowl when we played that at Pro Worlds in 2003. The course ranged between 9500 to 10,000 feet. The elevation difference was pretty brutal let alone the thin air.

It's not too hard to get 500 feet differential in many eastern locations but I would never recommend that for a public course if you want it to be played regularly. Granite Ridge is a workout and the lowest point is only about 125 feet lower than the start of the course. Toboggan may be less than that. People complain in the Twin Cities playing HSSA which is in the neighborhood of 125 feet vertical.

My point is that western mountains aren't necessarily ideal as terrain for fun, hilly courses EXCEPT for courses that start at the highest point, play mostly downhill and you take a shuttle or chairlift back to the top when done.

 

[Sadjo]

Ft collins isn't exactly hills, much less mountains. I was thinking either Beaver or Bailey.. or Leadville as mountain courses.
I was just poking fun at the "Mountains" back east since I live higher than any place east of the Mississippi. I've hiked some brutal hills with serious steep elevation gains in Michigan, but your mountains back there aren't very tall, or very rugged. They are older than the Rockies, more like our foothills.

I have family all over Colorado and vacationed there lots over the years...along with living in Southern California in the late 80s. I've also live in MN, IA, GA and SC....playing disc golf in all of those places. Elevation of an area and how many hills there are don't always go hand in hand.

Our mountains may not be tall....but all take the Golden Corner of SC or NE GA over any-other place to live, work and play DG.

 

[grodney]

There's a certain amount of pansy-ness involved if you're favoring one course over another due to shade in hot weather. Come on guys.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Note that for those over 40, the definition of a good throw on sunny days is one that lands in the shade where available.

 

[sidewinder22]

There's a certain amount of pansy-ness involved if you're favoring one course over another due to shade in hot weather. Come on guys.

Well where do I sign up for pansy-ness then?

 

[sidewinder22]

Note we're only talking about figuring out the effective length of a hole, not adjusting for other factors like precarious pins on mounds or sidehills. Those can be tougher due to elevation but doesn't come into play to determine the effective length of a hole.

I'll buy that for a $1.

 

[sidewinder22]

quite often those mountain courses don't play as well as courses that utilize "hills"

I am the only disc golfer in the world who doesnt get excited about mountain golf

I thought you enjoyed Orange Crush? Or you talking ski golf?

 

[skurf]

My two favorite courses (Circle C and Circle R - Meadow) I would consider moderately wooded. I do enjoy heavily wooded from time to time, but definitely not all the time, or even most of the time.

 

[optidiscic]

I thought you enjoyed Orange Crush? Or you talking ski golf?

Oh I loved orange crush. It's 100000 times the course Aspen mountain was.

 

[KniceZ]

On a more on topic note, you do not need big mountains to make it very hilly. If say 9 holes have elevation of 20'+ and another 3-5 have have elevation of 10-20', that is a very hilly course in the scheme of things (in the top 1/3 of hilliness).

Really - you'd call a course with holes that have 20' elevation change as very hilly??? 20' over a 400' hole is less than 0.5% grade.

I didn't expect it to take 100'+ to be called very hilly but 20' I'd call that moderate at most.

I agree with some of the later posts that you don't want a course to have more than maybe 150' min to max elevation change but going up and down 20' for 9 holes isn't much. And I'm from the low lands of Virginia.

 

[sidewinder22]

Really - you'd call a course with holes that have 20' elevation change as very hilly??? 20' over a 400' hole is less than 0.5% grade.

I didn't expect it to take 100'+ to be called very hilly but 20' I'd call that moderate at most.

I agree with some of the later posts that you don't want a course to have more than maybe 150' min to max elevation change but going up and down 20' for 9 holes isn't much. And I'm from the low lands of Virginia.

Your math is wrong, it's 5.0% grade not 0.5%. Vertical 20' is probably borderline depending on the hole length, for a 300' long hole that would probably be very hilly, but at 400' I'd probably call it moderate. It also depends on how drastic the change is from point to point or if its just an even grade the hole distance it doesn't seem as hilly.

 

[Dave242]

Really - you'd call a course with holes that have 20' elevation change as very hilly??? 20' over a 400' hole is less than 0.5% grade.

I didn't expect it to take 100'+ to be called very hilly but 20' I'd call that moderate at most.

I agree with some of the later posts that you don't want a course to have more than maybe 150' min to max elevation change but going up and down 20' for 9 holes isn't much. And I'm from the low lands of Virginia.

Yeah....I should have been more specific. Every time I don't get long-winded there seems to be this sort of post. Note that I said 20'+......and I should have been more clear that I was visualizing elevation in the 20-40' range.

30' of negative elevation change makes a 400' hole feel approximately like a 300' hole. 30' of positive elevation change makes a 200' hole feel more like 300'.

My point is that "Very Hilly" does necessarily mean mountainous, but rather that hills affect play on the majority of the course. 15-35' elevation change affects change. If 15 of 18 holes play up and down hills of this size, I see no problem calling it Very Hilly.......although I do agree with you that those are not big hills (when taken alone).

It is similar to "Heavily Wooded" does not mean only a heavy leafy canopy provided by big mature trees. It is the effect of tree trunks (saplings included) and shrubs on the flight of the disc:
....If the trees will almost never add an extra stroke from moderately bad drive with a moderately good recovery, it is Lightly Wooded
....If the trees will sometimes add an extra stroke from moderately bad drive with a moderately good recovery, it is Moderately Wooded
....If the trees will often/usually add an extra stroke from moderately bad drive with a moderately good recovery, it is Heavily Wooded.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

My point is that "Very Hilly" does necessarily mean mountainous, but rather that hills affect play on the majority of the course. 15-35' elevation change affects change. If 15 of 18 holes play up and down hills of this size, I see no problem calling it Very Hilly.......although I do agree with you that those are not big hills (when taken alone).

^works for me.

It is similar to "Heavily Wooded" does not mean only a heavy leafy canopy provided by big mature trees. It is the effect of tree trunks (saplings included) and shrubs on the flight of the disc:
....If the trees will almost never add an extra stroke from moderately bad drive with a moderately good recovery, it is Lightly Wooded
....If the trees will sometimes add an extra stroke from moderately bad drive with a moderately good recovery, it is Moderately Wooded
....If the trees will often/usually add an extra stroke from moderately bad drive with a moderately good recovery, it is Heavily Wooded.

^ so does this.

 

[scarpfish]

Elevation of an area and how many hills there are don't always go hand in hand.

This is very true. People who have never been to either Kansas City or Denver would probably have a perception of which city's topography was hillier based on geographic location. I'd suspect most of them would be wrong and pick Denver.

When you really consider the small footprint of a disc golf course, you really don't need miles of mountains to make a very hilly course. A small plot of less than 160 acres will suffice.

 

[mashnut]

You simply calculate the elevation difference on each hole and add them up. One of the courses I have lots of quality stats on is Granite Ridge at Highbridge. Even though it starts and ends at the top of the hill, there are 11 downhill holes, 4 uphill and 3 essentially level. That's because several holes have uphill walks from the pin to the next tee as you suggest.

I'm a big fan of granite ridge. I've played it once and the amount of downhill shots were the best I've seen.:thmbup:

On the opposite side of things, Brengle Terrace in Vista, CA has a ton of uphill holes and downhill walks with no big downhill shots for payoff. It's a nice technical course, but it feels less fun because of the odd elevation use.

 

[Sadjo]

This is very true. People who have never been to either Kansas City or Denver would probably have a perception of which city's topography was hillier based on geographic location. I'd suspect most of them would be wrong and pick Denver.

When you really consider the small footprint of a disc golf course, you really don't need miles of mountains to make a very hilly course. A small plot of less than 160 acres will suffice.

That's very true. The 9 hole course, Eagle Creek, in Clayton, GA is almost complete. Because Clayton is in the most NE county in Georgia and is considered the mountains, players from Atlanta will probably expect a mountain course with a lot of elevation change. When they arrive for the first time at the course they will learn it is on the flatest piece of land in the area. At least there are mountain views in every direction.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

On the opposite side of things, Brengle Terrace in Vista, CA has a ton of uphill holes and downhill walks with no big downhill shots for payoff. It's a nice technical course, but it feels less fun because of the odd elevation use.

I'd be willing to bet the ratings reflect this relative lack of fun. In an of it self, fun can skew ratings. When you finish a round, your state of mind can certainly color your perception of a course (particularly if you've never played it before). Those feelings typically come across in people's reviews and ratings.

Even if you don't want to consider fun in your peronal rating, you may be able to make the arguement that a course with predominantly more uphill fairways/downhill walks doesn't make good use of the natural elements - something many of us would factor into the rating. Some might think the Granite Ridge style downhill fairways/uphill walks maximizes the topography of that piece of property - and nudge it up for doing so. Others might feel either extreme lacks balance, and while making use of the elevation, does not do so particularly well, and factor that in accordingly.

No matter how you see it, the beauty is, depending on your DG value system - you're right.

 

[KniceZ]

Your math is wrong, it's 5.0% grade not 0.5%.

Duh So much for posting after midnight.

I still think this is subjective and regionally biased. I looked at the courses near me and most are listed as moderately hilly and I know some have way more than +/- 20-30 ft on many holes (Pratt and Giles Run come to mind).

 

[Cgkdisc]

As an overall concept when designing a course on hilly property, I like to go uphill with par 4s and 5s and have more par 3s in the downhill direction. That way, you can get more downhill than uphill holes in the layout. Players just remember that it's an uphill hole whether short or long so might as well pack a lot of the uphill fairways into fewer holes. Holes 10 & 18 on Granite and 14 at HSSA are examples packing a lot of upward elevation in one hole.

 

[sgamerp]

Because I made a mistake on that one - after filtering, I forgot to sort on ratings and so I just grabbed the first 3 alphabetically. :wall:

The top 3 are:
Flip City Disc Golf Park (MI), Base Camp Adventure Lodge DGC (UT), Stafford Lake County Park (CA).

I sent Bill a small donation of $12,000 for offending the Flip Faithful by not including them in a thread of top DGCR courses.

I was just confused as it's top 2 courese on the site I think