[Innova] Innova Vs. Discraft

[Omega SuperSloth]

Innova Rules DX SUX

i agree about innovas flight charts and number system it really helps you get the disc you want for the job you need, if you get one thats close but not it you can use that disc as baseline to adjust to the right disc. the other thing is innovas consistency if you lose a disc you can get a new one that throws exactley the same with just a little breakin time then they hold their shape forever except for dx, i wish they would quit making that crap,maybe for putters but thats it . by the way innovas all i throw besides millenium which they make and are pretty much just copies of innovas disc in differant plastics

 

[Three Putt]

Ahh ok, Is there another Discraft disc that is similiar to the orc?

Yup. The crush is pretty similar. The avenger is similar too, but probably more stable.

I'd say Flash. But, there is a lot of overlap between the Crush and Flash.

 

[33tango]

Innova because it's what is in the local shops. One of them has a couple discraft, but no information about them. There's some numbers on them and arrows, but no chart explaining what they mean.

I buy my discs locally in an effort to support businesses where people can "find" Disc Golf.

 

[ZMan44]

I think the reason that Discraft is coming on stronbger these days is the FLX plastic. It throws really smoothly and feels good in the hand. I used to be an exclusive innova/millenium guy. It has all changed. Innova has put out a lot of different runs of the same disc in the same plastics that fly totally different. The most recent instance is that the first run champ Boss is not as stable as the newer run of the champ Boss with the Feldberg Auto stamp. The Star Tee Rex is another example of different runs, different characteristics. I feel much more confident knowing that if I lose my FLX Avenger SS, I can go buy another one that is nearly identical in flight. I learned the hard way from Innova with the Star Tee Rex...lost one, got a new one. It was not even close to the same disc. I had to put it in the practice/extra bag after three rounds. I only putt with Gateway.

But these are not the only companies either. I guess I am like a 19 year old in Vegas...I try a little bit of everything. Right now in my bag are...

Innova (Star Wraith, SE T-Bird (2), SE Valk, SE Leopard, Star Skeeter, Star Cro, Star Gator, Star Eagle-X)
DiscCraft (FLX Avenger SS, FLX Surge SS, FLX XL)
Gateway (E-Voo Doo, O-Magic, SSS-Wizard, SSS-Warlock )
Latitude 64 (Riot, Vision)
Snap (Helios)
Millenium (LF)

And for the record, the Snap Helios flies farther than anything else I own.

 

[Lewis]

Why do we all find more Innova in the local shops? Is Discraft more focused on online sales?

 

[Three Putt]

Innova is a lot bigger than Discraft, so in the end they can cut a better deal. When I was selling discs the wholesale price break for Innova and Discraft was the same except Discraft only did price breaks to orders down to 200 discs or something like that. Innova gave price breaks on orders up to 500 discs, and from what I understood if you called them and negotiated for larger orders they would give you even more of a price break. For a retailer it's all about the price. If Innova has the volume (which they do) to undercut the price per disc for Discraft, that's what you are going to see in the stores. Why would Wal-Mart care? If a Discraft disc costs $.05 more to stock, that's $.05 less they make on the sale. $.05 spread out over 10's of thousands of discs sold in stores across the country adds up. So all the big chains carry Innova.

If I was running a store and was going to stock some discs, I'd stock Innova. I really don't prefer Innova in any way, but that is what people buy. Why would I stock Discraft or Gateway or Quest when I can just stock Innova and sell more discs? Hmmm...let's see...do something that's easier and make more money, or do something harder and make less money. Hmmm...

 

[BENFTS]

i carry a bit more Innova than DC in my bag. i love the soft challenger for approach puts and my Buzzz for mid-range drives and longer approaches. when i play a course with three discs i reach for an ESP Avenger, Soft challenger, and my Crystal Buzzz. when i need to throw over 350' i reach for the Innova Star Destroyer or my Xcaliber. i love both but have become a huge DC fan as of late.

 

[CincyRocs]

I have two problems with the discraft rating system:

One is the lack of detail and precision. How far do the discs glide? How fast are the discs? How much fade is on the discs with a negative rating?

The second is the ratings change when the plastics change. What if I want a disc with more durability or more grip? The rating changes.

 

[Three Putt]

I have two problems with the discraft rating system:

One is the lack of detail and precision. How far do the discs glide? How fast are the discs? How much fade is on the discs with a negative rating?

All those ratings on the Innova discs are essentially made-up numbers to sell you discs. They can't measure any of this stuff. All glide means is the disc in understable so it won't hyzer out. Once you analyze the numbers, you can start to guess the numbers from the disc descriptions. There is no science there.

The second is the ratings change when the plastics change. What if I want a disc with more durability or more grip? The rating changes.

Now this is something I like. It's just a fact...the denser plastics cause a disc to be more overstable. A Champion Banshee is A LOT more overstable than a DX Banshee, but according to Innova numbers they are the same. Discraft accounts for it by showing with their numbers that a Z disc is more overstable than a D disc in the same mold. Here here for truth in advertising.

 

[Omega SuperSloth]

All those ratings on the Innova discs are essentially made-up numbers to sell you discs. They can't measure any of this stuff. All glide means is the disc in understable so it won't hyzer out. Once you analyze the numbers, you can start to guess the numbers from the disc descriptions. There is no science there.

first of all glide means its abbilty to maintain alltitude or how much air it will get when you throw it turn is what measures understable or high speed turn and fade measures low speed turn and second ive gone out to a flat beach and thrown all my innova drivers and they fly and land exactly how their flight chart shows i dont throw discraft so im not gonna tell anyone how they throw so dont tell me about innova cause ive pretty much thrown all of them.

 

[Hamilton]

first of all glide means its abbilty to maintain alltitude or how much air it will get when you throw it turn is what measures understable or high speed turn and fade measures low speed turn ...

x2...glide is a measure of how much lift the shape of the disc creates, therfore how much it will "hang" in the air, and being able to tell how much a disc will turn right (high speed), before it fades left, and how hard it fades, are very useful bits of information that DC just does not provide...whether these are numerically measurable with instruments is one thing, it might be subjective but it is measurable...for these reasons i choose to buy innova over DC...

 

[ERicJ]

I have two problems with the discraft rating system:
[...]
The second is the ratings change when the plastics change. What if I want a disc with more durability or more grip? The rating changes.

Now this is something I like. It's just a fact...the denser plastics cause a disc to be more overstable. A Champion Banshee is A LOT more overstable than a DX Banshee, but according to Innova numbers they are the same. Discraft accounts for it by showing with their numbers that a Z disc is more overstable than a D disc in the same mold. Here here for truth in advertising.

I agree that Discraft is more upfront about advertising the flight characteristics change in different plastics. And I really like that they stamp that on the discs.

However, Innova also admits the differences but not to what extent:

Star Line

• Star discs have the same flight rating characteristics of Champion discs, although some Star discs may be slightly more high-speed stable.

Pro Line

• Driver models are slightly less stable than INNOVA Disc Flight Ratings

DX Line

• Initially more overstable than INNOVA Disc Flight Ratings and with increased wear eventually become less stable than the Disc Flight Ratings

Source: http://www.innovadiscs.com/faq/plastictype.html

 

[Three Putt]

x2...glide is a measure of how much lift the shape of the disc creates, therfore how much it will "hang" in the air, and being able to tell how much a disc will turn right (high speed), before it fades left, and how hard it fades, are very useful bits of information that DC just does not provide...whether these are numerically measurable with instruments is one thing, it might be subjective but it is measurable...for these reasons i choose to buy innova over DC...

Yeah, but the same shapes that create the lift also makes it understable. Understable=good glide. Overstable=bad glide. Big rim=fast. Small rim=slow. Basically with the Discraft stability number and the rim measurement, you can figure out what the Innova numbers for that disc will be pretty easily. It's not that hard to figure out.

Considering that it's just marketing, I really don't see it as a reason to choose one company over another. If a Surge is the best driver I've tried, I'm not going to ignore that just because it's a D-craft disc. Also, knowing what I know about Innova, probably the reason the other companies don't universally use the Innova rating numbers is that Innova has threatened to sue the pants of any company that does. That would not surprise me at all. Once you hear all the dirty little stories of how aggressively Innova had taken legal action against the other disc manufacturers, it paints a pretty compelling picture to throw the other guys discs IMO.

 

[sidewinder22]

Innova is kinda like Microsoft, and Discraft would be the Apple of discgolf. Millennium would be one of the companies that Microsoft bought or muscled out and forced a "no compete" contract.

 

[ZMan44]

DiscCraft will gain steadier popularity as the number of world class players who use them increases. If Nate Doss continues to win at a steady rate, players will become more intrigued. Innova sponsored players have a better chance in each of the big tourneys because their are more of them. (Climo, Feldberg, Jenkins, etc.) But if Doss can continue to compete, it could really boost sales for DiscCraft. Don't misunderstand me: I still carry a lot of Innova, but Innova is turning into the Microsoft of discs...little competition yields little advancement. Star plastic came out for the sole purpose of competing with ESP and FLX plastics. The competition spawned growth and more innovation in disc development. I think DiscCraft is making advances and, in so doing they are furthering the development of disc golf products as a whole.

 

[Three Putt]

There was a time in the mid to late 90's where Discraft had a nice line-up of players. Ron Russell won World's in '99, Scott Stokely had set the world distance record first with an X-Clone and then with an XL, and Juliana Bower had just overtaken Elaine King as the best Women's player and they were both D-craft sponsored. Then Juliana jumped to Innova, Stokely got hurt and retired, and Ron Russell joined the real working world. Poof...the Discraft team was gone. They signed Cam Todd and Leslie Herndon away from Innova, but then they quit disc golf. So Discraft does not have a great history with their sponsored team.

I'm not sure it really matters. Really very few disc golfers know who the "pro" disc golfers are. All they know are the names on their discs. If you put out a disc and stamped "Deuce Biggilo, 5X World Champion" on it, most disc golfers would buy that Deuce Biggilo is a "pro" disc golfer. If you went out on a non-tournament Saturday and polled the casual golfers there on "pro" disc golfers, chances are 95% would not be able to name a player who does not have their name on a disc. So, I'm not sure what good it does for Innova to have a deeper team of sponsored players since most people buying discs have no idea who they are. The signature discs promote the players, not the other way around.

 

[Lewis]

Competition is definitely good, but we shouldn't compare Innova and Discraft to Microsoft and Apple. It's a bit of a false analogy in my opinion, and it stirs up unhelpful passions.

Right now I'm an exclusive Innova user, mainly because their discs are what's available in stores, but also because their rating system makes sense to me. That could all change if I'm given persuasive reasons to try other brands, and then like what I find.

And for those of you who want to feel sorry for Discraft, remember that they make the official disc of Ultimate, and no doubt have a copyright on the mold. Given that fact, I'd betcha their share of the Ultimate market dwarfs Innova's.

In either market, the better product will eventually gain the loyalty of the players, starting with the pros, no matter what name is stamped on the plastic.

 

[sidewinder22]

I was just trying to make a simple analogy, I don't understand why people are so sensitive to an opinion about a company. Apple pushes microsoft for better products and their respective market shares are similar regarding discgolf.

 

[SimonCarr]

Discraft freaking rocks.. I throw mostly Innova, but I keep an old beatup Discraft XL that gets insane glide. Got to love the Buzzz. I'm also a big fan of the Hawk, which is a midrange disc that NO ONE talks about... Doss swears by the hawk.

Innova has more quality products overall, but they have been around longer and have put out a lot more discs. They also have also put out a lot more crappy discs, and they make a lot of discs that are nearly identical but with different names.

The PC / Mac thing doesn't apply at all (as macs are just far superior machines!

 

[Three Putt]

And for those of you who want to feel sorry for Discraft, remember that they make the official disc of Ultimate, and no doubt have a copyright on the mold. Given that fact, I'd betcha their share of the Ultimate market dwarfs Innova's.

Innova is a disc golf company that makes some sport discs and doggie toys on the side. The founder is a disc golfer. Discrafts founder is the co-inventor of Freestyle. They are a sport disc company that makes some golf discs. They make more money off Ultra Stars than they do selling all of their golf discs combined. That probably explains a lot about why Innova sells so many more golf disc.