Is this a Foot Fault?

[bulletproof88]

Nailed it!

We should install sensors in everyones feet with buzzers, and gloves that sense the disc. That'll make the sport legit, man. Or, we can go throw plastic, and relax a little.

If this thread were a hole, and your post were a throw, you would have aced it!

 

[Halcón]

Don't let me catch you using your hips!!!

Sounds good to me. Hip shaking is of the devil.

 

[JoakimBL]

This pic shows that the whole philosophy of playing it where it lies is completely out the window with the current rules. I would like to see a ball golfer get away with putting a few feet closer than where the ball was marked. It really shows the lack of professionalism in the rules of the game.

*upon further examination, I believe his complete upper torso is beyond the marked lie.

Also, the disc is a good 5 feet higher than the marked lie.:doh:

 

[garublador]

That statement is incorrect. He is clearly in the air before releasing the disc. You disagree with that, and I respect that, I expect you to respect a differing point of view. Asking for evidence, then claiming the evidence is incorrect is childish, and I am not going down that path.

It's not childish, it's correct. You have not given any video of photographic evidence that illegal jump putts have been performed. They have all been perfectly legal shots. Your opinion on the matter does not matter, all that matters is that the disc has left their hand while they had a valid stance. You have only provided evidence that there are not stance violations happening with jump putts so there isn't a question of whether or not it's legal. So far every video you've given has shown that jump putts are being performed legally.

 

[araytx]

It really seems some of you are only concerned with winning. I am not meaning that in a derogatory way, it just seems you have blinders on. These foot faults and questionable foot faults extend from a lack of integrity. Just because a rule exists does not make it right or wrong, that is why rules change. If seeing Feldberg's body completely past the marker except for a toe behind the marker, still with the disc in his hand, if that doesn't make you cringe, then you are probably not looking at it with your mind directed towards 'does this look appropriate?'. I am all for momentum, and your body going past the marker after you released the disc when you were behind it is not a problem. Ron Russell beat Ken Climo in Climo's prime, and I don't think Ron Russell has ever come close to a foot fault, at least not making a long putt. That to me was a true Disc Golf Champion, beating the best in a way that doesn't question if he was borderline faulting.

Enough on this subject though, I would just encourage everyone to start calling out all jump putts and step over putts.

In the catch phrase of Hall of Famer Cris Carter, "come on, man!"

It's not about winning. If you are saying, "while I agree what Feldberg is doing is within the rules, you disagree with 'what it should be'," then how dare you say it is about "winning" for others. Listen to Feldy and he will tell you that he developed that shot and practiced it to be WITHIN what is legal by the rules. Which I then I interpret to mean, had it not been legal, he'd have learned and practiced something else that was legal. You cannot "assume" that people who work and practice hundreds of times in their backyard or on the course in non-tourney play are attempting to "push the limits of what's legal" or "show disregard for the integrity of the sport." Come on, man! This isn't a second baseman coming off the base too quick before he catches the ball when turning a double play -- it's a shortstop on a double play catching the ball off the bag, beginning his turn toward first and then barely nicking the bag with his toe just before he releases the ball on the throw.

I'm sorry, but by your philosophy every disc golfer with bad form who can't keep his weight back, and actually transfers his weight forward before the release is also in violation ON EVERY DRIVE, because parts of their body are "leaning past the front of the marker or tee area." If you disagree with the rule, then fine -- say that and join the committee like one of the posters stated and get it changed. But to say "those who perform a legal walking putt-step or putt-jump are lacking integrity" is a very presumptuous statement.

By the way, I agree with you that every Jump-[then]-Putt should be called. It is a violation to release the disc without any supporting point behind the marker 30cm and on the ground -- meaning in the air is not within the rules. But if it is a putt-step, or putt-jump, it is not and should not be called. And if you can't tell if the player jumped first or stepped past first, it also should not be called. There's not clear evidence of a violation in the cases.

 

[Billy_awesome]

Am I the only one around here? That didn't think of this while reading this thread??

 

[BradC]

It looks like even if he would have been a half inch back and not touched his marker/disc, it would (might) have still been a foot fault as he appears to be too far right when you consider that the basket is around the corner to the right and the line of play is to the basket (or Mando) rather than down the fairway.

Surprised nobody has mentioned this further.

Taking the angle he did makes it easier to turn that disc over down that fairway, why didn't anyone in the group call this? Does anyone ever call this?

 

[grodney]

Surprised nobody has mentioned this further.

Taking the angle he did makes it easier to turn that disc over down that fairway, why didn't anyone in the group call this? Does anyone ever call this?

I noticed it in the video but before I could comment I saw that Dave already had. Given the angle of the camera, I don't think it's possible for us to tell if he was on the line-of-play. But knowing the hole, I don't think he was.

It came up once at USDGC, on hole 4, which makes nearly a U shape around some very thick woods (no mando once you're 5 feet off the tee). As I recall, somebody hit a tree about 40 feet off the tee and they were still on the first part of the U. He lined up his foot on the SIDE of the disc, relative to the direction he was throwing, but it was correctly on the line-of-play to the basket. Somebody tried to "correct" him before he threw, but the player corrected the corrector with the correct rule.

 

[JC17393]

I noticed it in the video but before I could comment I saw that Dave already had. Given the angle of the camera, I don't think it's possible for us to tell if he was on the line-of-play. But knowing the hole, I don't think he was.

It came up once at USDGC, on hole 4, which makes nearly a U shape around some very thick woods (no mando once you're 5 feet off the tee). As I recall, somebody hit a tree about 40 feet off the tee and they were still on the first part of the U. He lined up his foot on the SIDE of the disc, relative to the direction he was throwing, but it was correctly on the line-of-play to the basket. Somebody tried to "correct" him before he threw, but the player corrected the corrector with the correct rule.

I remember having a similar conversation at hole 4 years ago when I was playing it. That "issue" has been made moot in recent years with the design change on that hole. No longer is there an OB "lake" between the tee-side fairway and the green, there is a mando well down the fairway forcing the hole to be played as a long hairpin-style horseshoe. Now players can line up behind the mark with the direction they are throwing (toward the mando) and be on the line-of-play to the mando.

I would say that of the various types of foot fault stance violations that can be called, the line-of-play-around-a-dogleg foot placement like what is suspected in that video of Barry is the least often called (not that many are ever called). And I think that's primarily because people have an incorrect understanding of how line of play works. I don't know how many times I've had to point out the proper way to mark and address a mark on doglegs to players that have been playing for years and generally have a very good understanding of the rules of play.

 

[Dave242]

Another way of thinking of it that might be helpful to you is that the "real rule" of fairness to be broken or "real line" of fairness to be crossed is well passed where it is defined today by the rules. So, when people are pushing the rules now and possibly even just nudging past them, they are actually only approaching the line or fairness that really cannot be broken without giving an unfair advantage to the violator.

It really seems some of you are only concerned with winning. I am not meaning that in a derogatory way, it just seems you have blinders on. These foot faults and questionable foot faults extend from a lack of integrity. Just because a rule exists does not make it right or wrong, that is why rules change.

This philosophical divide on how different people approach rules in sport is fascinating to me......philosophical purity versus practical implementation both in creating the rules and in interpreting them in enforcement stage.

I do not think it is only about winning and argument or having blinders on....although that is a dynamic that can happen on no matter what side of this divide you are coming from. It is a real danger for any and all of us.

Football rules are the easiest to demonstrate things from.....since there are so dang many of them, and they seem to be tweaking them every year.

In the "drawing the line way before the problem is caused" area, look at blows to the QB's head. With the way the rule is written/enforced now, if a defender so much as touches the QB's helmet it is a 15 yd penalty. BUT....if the officials accidentally miss a call, there is not a huge outcry as big as what is often/usually seen in some other misses the zebras make. That is because viewers understand that what the rule's intention is is to avoid injury/concussion to a vulnerable player....and that happens well beyond incidental touching.

 

[primal dg]

Lol nice pic

 

[Dave242]

Flyboy Foot Faults:

New approach on Damnit, Quasar:

Hammer OVER THE LINE:

kratc approach on 3:

Connor Jones, mid slip:

new putting his hair into it:

 

[Dave242]

opcorn:

 

[Dave242]

double post - woops

 

[Norcal]

I'm not sure all your pictures depict illegal stances. Regardless, players often miss their mark when executing run-up shots from the fairway. The rule should probably be changed since it's unlikely that it will ever be enforced consistently, and an inch or two, or even a foot, does not typically confer much of an advantage in these situations.

 

[The Hammer]

ITT - Teebird Elvis doesn't know the rules regarding stance, but tries to argue anyway.

 

[The Hammer]

Flyboy Foot Faults:

I wish I would have been called on mine, it was a terrible drive.

 

[grodney]

an inch or two, or even a foot, does not typically confer much of an advantage in these situations.

It's a mental thing, and it's a huge difference.

It's amazing how many people don't understand this.

 

[JC17393]

I'm not sure all your pictures depict illegal stances. Regardless, players often miss their mark when executing run-up shots from the fairway. The rule should probably be changed since it's unlikely that it will ever be enforced consistently, and an inch or two, or even a foot, does not typically confer much of an advantage in these situations.

Errr...

Sorry, big pet peeve of mine is the fallacy that because a rule isn't being enforced properly, it needs to be changed. The problem with rules enforcement within this sport is not in the rule book, it's with the prevailing attitude of players that it's not cool/important/worth the effort to enforce the rules (with a healthy dose of players who just don't know the rules well at all).

There's plenty of advantage gained by missing the mark, be it by an inch or a foot. Maybe it is not always a distinct physical advantage (i.e. just missing a tree vs hitting it, shot going in versus hitting front of the cage, etc), but it is certainly a significant mental advantage.

The difference between throwing without concern for hitting one's mark precisely (which is the biggest reason most players miss their mark at all) and making a concerted effort to hit the mark precisely on every throw is significant. IMO, the people who don't recognize the difference are the ones that have never put in the practice or effort to hit their mark accurately and consistently on a fairway run-up.

Don't believe it? Put it to the test yourself. Go out to a field and throw 10-20 shots each way (trying to hit the mark versus not) and see which set contains the better results.

 

[Norcal]

It's a mental thing, and it's a huge difference.

It's amazing how many people don't understand this.

There's plenty of advantage gained by missing the mark, be it by an inch or a foot. Maybe it is not always a distinct physical advantage (i.e. just missing a tree vs hitting it, shot going in versus hitting front of the cage, etc), but it is certainly a significant mental advantage.

You're preaching to the choir. I agree that a player that does not strictly adhere to the rule has a mental advantage over one who does. My comment above was directed to the physical advantage- which is negligible in most situations.

I don't believe this rule will ever be enforced consistently, and the proof is in the pudding. As a player that adheres to the rule, I'd like to see it changed so that all players are on equal footing (pun intended).