Ken Climo full on foot fault in the finals...

[lyleoross]

I dunno man. He very clearly goes and marks where he knows he has to throw from...and then misses it pretty soundly.

Just saying, it comes across as very purposeful.

Disagree. Look, to what purpose? did he really gain a better line? When that foot placement really really matters, like in the shule, most players stand in so it's clear they are throwing around the object in the way and aren't cheating.

 

[air show]

Calling a foot fault on that throw would of been an advantage to Ken if it had been his first warning. The first warning does not cost a stroke but a rethrow if I understand the rule correctly. Am I correct on this rule?

 

[lyleoross]

Until such a time as we can say that every foot placement is watched or seen, as in by a tour official, then we have a problem. No matter how you parse it, most players don't see most foot placements. It's easy to see it postmortem in a video, but during a round, it's a different fish. It takes a juxtaposition of discs and players for your competitors to be close enough to make an accurate call. Most players don't follow their competitiors shot to shot to observe this rule, it just doesn't happen.

 

[lyleoross]

Calling a foot fault on that throw would of been an advantage to Ken if it had been his first warning. The first warning does not cost a stroke but a rethrow if I understand the rule correctly. Am I correct on this rule.

Yep, Go look at the end of the Memorial, amusing as heck, but this exact issue came up.

 

[ru4por]

Calling a foot fault on that throw would of been an advantage to Ken if it had been his first warning. The first warning does not cost a stroke but a rethrow if I understand the rule correctly. Am I correct on this rule?

Really has not impact on the call. A foot fault is a foot fault, whether a rethrow, stroke, advantage....

 

[araytx]

When I play, I don't follow my co-competitors around to see if they've foot faulted. It isn't that I don't look, it's just harder to do than it is to write. I'm focused on my own game and my own shot. And yes, I know the rules require that we look at our competitors throws. I suspect that 90% of all foot faults are missed.

Moral dilemma time. If you're missing a big chunk of the foot faults on your card, and you happen to catch one, is it fair to call it at the expense of that player? If you remove the dilemma part of that, yep, easy call. But, is it equivalent, and does it lead to good or fair outcomes?

NO dilemma for me. The answer is yes, if I notice it I should call it. Just like any official in any sport. Any other logic would suggest that no call should be ever made unless it is 100% accurate and 100% noticed, 100% of the time that it occurs. There is no such thing.

Is it fair? I say yes, but again, your definition may be the 100%-100%-100% thing. Is it fair when I get a ticket for speeding 70mph in a 55mph zone while the officer fails to stop the three cars that passed me just a minute in front? I say yes -- because I was speeding. Similarly if I foot-faulted -- whether I've missed a few others during the round or not -- I foot-faulted. Fair isn't relative to other people; it's relative to the rule.

 

[hook_nuts]

*****BREAKING NEWS***** FOOT FAULT IN DISC GOLF*****

As far as intentional, he lines it up, his toe might have hit the line, then his foot drags away because he's trying to get around the tree. No malicious intent. It could've been called. It wasn't. Time to move on.

 

[Jay Dub]

Dave Greenwell got called for a foot fault from the tee.

Warning and re-throw.

He aced the re-throw.

True story.

 

[lyleoross]

NO dilemma for me. The answer is yes, if I notice it I should call it. Just like any official in any sport. Any other logic would suggest that no call should be ever made unless it is 100% accurate and 100% noticed, 100% of the time that it occurs. There is no such thing.

Is it fair? I say yes, but again, your definition may be the 100%-100%-100% thing. Is it fair when I get a ticket for speeding 70mph in a 55mph zone while the officer fails to stop the three cars that passed me just a minute in front? I say yes -- because I was speeding. Similarly if I foot-faulted -- whether I've missed a few others during the round or not -- I foot-faulted. Fair isn't relative to other people; it's relative to the rule.

You are conflating speeding with foot faults.... annnnnd, they aren't equivalent. That said, a lawyer viewing our sport as a gambling enterprise - you're betting your money against his - might disagree with you. She might just demand parity and assurance that all things are equal so as to ensure that the bet isn't rigged. Since you can't assure that, you have a problem. In a gambling situation, that taint fair, the odds have been pushed towards the guy who didn't get called.

I understand that it isn't a dilemma for you, but I wasn't measuring against you, I was measuring against the law. The law looks at gaming ventures and sports differently than they do other things. Now, we're smaller than the big sports, so we are getting away with it, but if we were a big sport, with lots o money at stake, they'd take notice.

 

[coupe]

You are conflating speeding with foot faults.... annnnnd, they aren't equivalent.

You're the only one conflating speeding with foot faults because you fail, either through real or feigned ignorance, to grasp the nature of an analogy.

801.01 Application of the Rules
B. Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred. Calls must be made promptly.

If you aren't watching when a big chunk of foot faults occur, you can't call them because you can't know whether or not a foot fault actually, much less clearly, occurred, but if a foot fault occurs on the one time in a thousand that you're watching, you're expected to call it.

Refusal to do so is a courtesy violation 804.01.D, which, coupled with your earlier courtesy warning for failure to watch other members of the group to ensure compliance with the rules (801.04.C), earns you a penalty stroke.

 

[joecoin]

Just figure out how often foot faults occur by watching many many hours of dg videos and live dg rounds. Then, just automatically call one foot per every x throws. You won't have to watch the player while he throws and you can focus on your own game.

 

[Jukeshoe]

Dave Greenwell got called for a foot fault from the tee.

Warning and re-throw.

He aced the re-throw.

True story.
__________________
______________________________
Nothing I post on the Internet is true.

:| :| :|

 

[Jay Dub]

Nothing I post on the Internet is true.

Posted on the Internet.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

I dunno man. He very clearly goes and marks where he knows he has to throw from...and then misses it pretty soundly.

Just saying, it comes across as very purposeful.

You must be a mind reader to see/tell that he missed his mark "purposely. Or you were there as a spectator and paid attention to his eyes as he threw.
His head is clearly up and facing towards his disc in the air as it leaves his hand and afterwards.

Nobody on the card saw it, or has fessed up to seeing it and ignoring it.
He is human. He's capable of lining up his foot and subsequently missing the marker.

My GUESS is that he intended to NOT smack his hand on that tree, which pulled his run-up over to the right and off the marker. But that's just a guess.

 

[Steve West]

Just figure out how often foot faults occur by watching many many hours of dg videos and live dg rounds. Then, just automatically call one foot per every x throws. You won't have to watch the player while he throws and you can focus on your own game.

Are you an Actuary?

To be on topic, I wouldn't have called this. Sure, he missed where he was trying to land, but his toe may (or may not) have been on the line. I'm not real sure where the line is because there is a tree in the way. I think in real time I would not have been sure enough to say a violation "has clearly occurred". (Even though I would have been watching like a hawk after seeing him do all that pre-throw lining up.)

 

[BionicRib]

I love how people say it was obvious when there is no way to tell the line of play.

 

[mcrow24]

Hard to say if it was on purpose but I'm leaning toward not. However, if the rest of the group doesn't warn him about faulting then it is what it is. This is a game where the players enforce the rules for the most part, if they don't call it, it's their own fault if he gets a better shot than he should.

 

[discallday]

Hard to say if it was on purpose but I'm leaning toward not. However, if the rest of the group doesn't warn him about faulting then it is what it is. This is a game where the players enforce the rules for the most part, if they don't call it, it's their own fault if he gets a better shot than he should.

I agree - it was not intentional. But I do think he missed his line.

Two questions for the forum:
1) Is a player allowed to call his own fault, lest a re-throw provide him an opportunity to make a better shot?
2) Does the fact that he is THE CHAMP make any of you a little more hesitant about calling him on a violation (or perhaps make Terry or the other players hesitant about mentioning it)? I call plenty of co-competitors (more than I ever see anybody else, anyway), but I stopped doing it this weekend (playing in open) when it's clear that a player is out of the running for cash, etc. I know I should still call every violation I see, because it is still effecting the scoring and ratings distributions, but I don't want to seen as the tournament snitch/whatever. If I ever played a big tournament, then I might be even more hesitant to call a touring pro on a fault.

 

[jeremyhilss]

Disc golf is fine the way it's being played. Now if you want a real pickle/cluster**** of a rules situation, go check out this little, less known sports league called the NFL......

There, feel better guys?

 

[grodney]

I hope the answer to this isn't to try and change the rule...

Good point. With stand-and-deliver, there likely would have been no violation. And if there were, his card-mates would have no trouble calling it. They would have actually pointed it out pre-throw.

So yeah, the rule should probably be changed to allow no fairway run-up.