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[Innova] Last non mod disc that Innova produced?
- Thread starter sumo21
- Start date
ed IV
Birdie Member
-i assume that the discmania any top is the same use on the current cd and td?
I agree with this. As someone who has toyed around with designing discs, when you get down to it, you are confined to a very small box when it comes to disc geometry. It would be very difficult more a new company to design a disc that is truly unique and not comparable to some other disc already on the market. Kastaplast has done this, with a unique feature under the disc, which some would call innovation and others a gimmick.
I feel like this is a bit contradictory. It is difficult to be truly innovative when required to adhere to pretty strict guidelines. I'm not saying I don't agree with the current standards, but I do believe they stifle creativity to a degree. IMHO, running a disc in new plastic is not being innovative. There are thousands upon thousands of established polymer blends, and I'm sure there are salesmen who would like to sell you all of them.
Thanks! :hfive:
Vibram is a bit different in how their discs are produced. They utilize compression molding instead of injection molding. Tooling costs can be lower, but cycle times are higher. The cycle time alone may be the bottleneck of their operation (pure speculation), but with long cycle times for each disc and capacity constraints, maybe they don't have the capacity to have 20 different discs on the market, or maybe they are content with where they are at now. Again, that's just speculation on my part.
Before I finished typing this I wanted to fact check myself. Below is a video of Vibram from The Disc Golf Guy. The part I am referencing is at 1:45. It appears the mold pieces are a matched set based on the engravings on the mold pieces, and Steve also says the press will open after 10 minutes. A typical injection molding cycle time for a disc is approximately one minute. So if each manufacturer only has one mold for a specific disc, an injection molder will outpace Vibram 10:1 on production.
Because I mentioned cavity and core earlier, I want to be sure I partially explain how the mold works to make sure everyone is on the same page. MVP is unique in that they need two separate molds to create one disc. First, they mold what they refer to as the "core". This is essentially their inner rim and the geometry the overmold will mate to. The image below is of a basic injection mold design, as pulled straight from the internet. I think disc golfers have adopted the term "core", but in its absolute meaning in the injection molding industry it is a part of the mold that creates half the part. There is a cavity, and there is a core. The emptiness in between is where the plastic fills to form the part.
I tried finding the MVP manufacturing video, but it looks like it got pulled. It showed them hand picking the "core" from the mold to have the outer portion of the disc molded in a second step.
You said a lot of what I was trying to get across earlier, I was just lazy.
The one thing I would add, is that a large company like Innova probably doesn't create a single set of tooling molds for a new disc. Even this could provide for slightly different flights in discs, with tooling tolerances usually in the .005" range.
hugheshilton
* Ace Member *
Glad I persevered through all the pages of MVP/Innova lovers trolling one another. I love Innova and MVP (and all of you) so don't troll me. Meulen's posts were actually interesting and informative (not something you can say about most forum posts anywhere on the Internet. Hats off to you sir!
As to the question put forward by the OP, I would say, who cares? As has been pointed out, most everything within PDGA certification guidelines has already been tried so most every mold will be seen as derivative in some way of another mold. The OP talked about the Wombat being derivative of the Foxbat which is amusing to me because the Foxbat itself hasn't really been around all that long. Also, the wing on the Whale is nothing like an Aviar PnA. The Whale is a beaded Magic, so Innova had to have at least reproduced something like the Magic mold in order to create it.
As has been noted, even many beloved molds like the PD were themselves derivatives that originally shared top or bottom pieces with previous molds. When all the blunt, large brush strokes have been filled in, the only thing left to do is refine and refine and refine with smaller brushes to try and reach perfection.
As to the question put forward by the OP, I would say, who cares? As has been pointed out, most everything within PDGA certification guidelines has already been tried so most every mold will be seen as derivative in some way of another mold. The OP talked about the Wombat being derivative of the Foxbat which is amusing to me because the Foxbat itself hasn't really been around all that long. Also, the wing on the Whale is nothing like an Aviar PnA. The Whale is a beaded Magic, so Innova had to have at least reproduced something like the Magic mold in order to create it.
As has been noted, even many beloved molds like the PD were themselves derivatives that originally shared top or bottom pieces with previous molds. When all the blunt, large brush strokes have been filled in, the only thing left to do is refine and refine and refine with smaller brushes to try and reach perfection.
Interesting discussion (outside of people bringing MVP into an Innova thread).
My first thought when I read the OP was... Tern. I can't recall anybody ever saying 'oh the Tern is just a <insert disc here> bottom with an <insert disc here> top.'
Atlas and Nova are probably the real answer though.
My first thought when I read the OP was... Tern. I can't recall anybody ever saying 'oh the Tern is just a <insert disc here> bottom with an <insert disc here> top.'
Atlas and Nova are probably the real answer though.
what are you talking about? I was referring to the top anyways lol im far from a PD fanboy
It only took the MVP superfan 14 minutes to begin trolling this thread.
Company fans can be a dual edged sword. They are great when they make lots of threads promoting company products. However, fanatics that post in threads about rival companies, and make disrespectful comments about those companies, may actually be hurting the brand(s) they are trying so desperately to boost.
It is possible to be competitive and be a good sport at the same time. A good sportsman competes with vigor and passion as opposed to malice and vengeance. Win or lose, a good sportsman is respectful and refrains from making derogatory comments about rivals.
grotto
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2014
- Messages
- 1,336
BINGO!
Iv'e tried almost every brand out there yet shrink away from MVP every time because of the fanatic fan boy association. Mike C. is the best promoter out there for MVP, he doesn't bash rivals, he just shows what he throws, and he shows more than MVP too.
Start a thread seeking specific disc info that is not MVP and within 5 posts the MVP boys show up to "inform us". Some of you guys do far more to hurt your brand with your loyalty than you do to help promote it.
For what it's worth, I have tried MVP, but every time I picked it up to throw it, I felt like a poser fan boy, I finally traded it off.
Mocheez
* Ace Member *
The Nova is an overmold beadless Aviar. I'd consider that a mod.
ZAMson
^Has PhD in Disc-Artistry
I struggle with this in direct proportion to how much I load or comment on this site. The fanaticism from all angles just erodes my positive spirit.
I can't say I've thrown a Nova but I did throw an Atlas around when they were released. It seemed to me like a futuristic Aurora, which I remain a big fan of. Can you tell us anything about the relationship between those molds? Is the Atlas a reboot of the Aurora (or what was it called before, Pro One?)?
Ender175
Eagle Member
Except you can't just 'mod' a one piece mold into a two piece mold, and the lower wing is slightly different, and the Nova has a thumbtrac. But they're both lid-like Innova putters, so yeah...
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
The Nova has a Thumbtrac? Where? It's not particularly lidlike either with that beveled-edge wing it has.
Are you sure you're talking about the right mold?
Are you sure you're talking about the right mold?
Sorry, but Dave Dunipace does not really share with the world exactly how he designs discs. However, information I can share (mostly because Dave D has shared it before):
Some discs share parts. I can't say which parts make which discs. However, I will say there is a ton of incorrect information posted here about disc design and disc production.
First: As Meulen correctly stated upthread, discs can only share parts with disc in the same "family". In other words, a disc with a 2.4 cm rim width can only share parts with another 2.4 disc. (In other words, there is no way for the Destroyer (2.2cm rim) to share parts with the Vulcan (2.4cm rim) to create Destrulcans.
Second: As Meulen also correctly stated, there is no such thing as a "spacer" when molding discs. This is a simple basic fact of injection molding that disc golfers don't want to believe.
Finally: Dave is always tweaking everything in an effort to make it better. He is never satisfied. As soon as he finishes with an idea to improve a disc, he moves along to the next idea. It is not always just new disc ideas, but experimenting with new disc materials like Blizzard, GStar, XT plastic, etc.
hugheshilton
* Ace Member *
Thanks Discette, that was some very useful information. I love the confirmation that "Destrulcans" don't really exist (Destroyers with slightly more square-ish tops do, but they don't actually share anything with a Vulcan). Also, hopefully after this was can finally stop talking about "spacers" which I've always thought to be a product of some people's imaginations.
Yeah, kind of crazy that the first I'd heard of nose spacers was here back in 2012 and just took it at face value. Even used it myself a few times.
Streets
* Ace Member *
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2012
- Messages
- 10,584
This accounts for like 80% of DGCR posts.
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