Laura Nagtegaal 2019 Amateur World Champion FA40

[Binky Yutz]

(If a man could transition into an older man, and play in an age-protected division despite his birthdate, it would be slightly similar).

I got to meet you when I played Stoney Hill, and you and I both have already transitioned into older men!!! (my attempt at humor). but I get what you are saying....

 

[DavidSauls]

The protected divisions exist because biological realities reduce the average skill level of those groups, as well as the ceiling. This applies to both age- and gender-protected divisions, though the ceiling might at 40+ may be disputable.

.

I should have said that protected divisions exist in part because....

There are social and practical reasons for both age- and gender-protected divisions, as well.

 

[gingerandhoney]

I have followed this thread from the beginning, and I usually stay out of these types of threads....

What I was wondering was (as it pertains to disc golf only): Are there any persons naturally born female, that have transitioned to male, and now play in the MPO, MA40, or any male division....AND are there then inherent disadvantages, due to all the same reasons given for being an advantage in the male to female transitioning person???

Does that even make sense?? In other words, is the OPPOSITE true also, for the same reasons.

Would the same arguments be made?
Would MPO players have a problem with that ?

First of all, any person is always allowed to play in Mxxx divisions.
In this particular case, a transgender man, aka "Female to Male" transgender man that would want to be reclassified for disc golf would normally be taking testosterone. Whereas transgender women have to meet requirements (in this case, testosterone below 10nmol/l, for 22+ months, uninterruptedly), transgender men do not have any requirements to meet.
They would "simply" ask to be reclassified, and with that, lose the ability to play in gender-protected divisions.
That transgender man is most likely going to be taking hormone replacement therapy (in this case, adding testosterone), and would start "building" the same advantages that transgender women are "tearing down".

This would mean in the transgender man's case (aside from surgical procedures like mastectomy, hysterectomy, metoidioplasty/phalloplasty) would start becoming male; muscle mass starts to develop in male patterns, stamina and explosivity start improving, and if the person is (pre)pubescent, bone structure could become (slightly) more masculine.

And not important for disc golf, but oh so important to the transgender man, male facial and body hair patterns start developing, male pattern baldness starts, voice deepens, etc..

Are any female to male disc golfers active? Possibly.
Would your cisgender men have an issue with a transgender man playing in 'their' division? I would hope not.

I'll state it again, but the very very vast majority of negativity I experienced during these last 5.5 weeks came from men.
It was actually the women who typically were between 'tolerating me' or 'accepting me'. I am not saying all women accepted me, but whereas I would say that about 95% of the men chiming in were yelling "unfair", "man", "advantage", only about 5-10% of the women who spoke up were.
So, by looking at it from the "those who would potentially have their lunch money stolen are expected to yell loudest" angle, the women seem to NOT react in that way, yet the men do.

Somehow, I think that toxic masculinity has something to do with this, but I haven't quite figured out exactly how.
My most avid and staunch 'attacker' (easily 200 messages by this one person) claimed (after about 100 messages) to be talking on behalf of his wife, but said wife has not spoken up in a negative manner to anyone I know (we actually have a few mutual friends)

And following the popular belief that "women are weaker than men" (only if you look at non-existent average men and women), then the men (who profess above statement most avidly), they would quite probably be "ah, whatever, so this transgender dude thinks he can beat us? He can't even break 350ft".
I'd like to see the WTF look on their faces when the added testosterone makes that person throw 400+ drives <3

 

[gingerandhoney]

Slight correction.

You are referring to transgender women here, not all transgender people, correct? Transgender men would be undergoing testosterone therapy and whatever the equivalent surgeries are for them, to gain a performance-enhancing intervention. Performance-leveling may be a better word for it.

Regardless, while I know your intent was to address your side of the situation, it doesn't apply equally across both halves of the spectrum.

Thank you for pointing that out. I was indeed referring to transgender women, not transgender people/men. Sleep deprivation induced brainfreeze.

 

[Noill]

so, a transgender man could stay classified in a female protected division until they ask to be reclassified?

is that the case or..?

 

[gingerandhoney]

so, a transgender man could stay classified in a female protected division until they ask to be reclassified?

is that the case or..?

COULD? No!
DO? Possibly.

Abusers of the system are going to be present in ANY system.
In defense of anyone transgender, I would argue that, whilst they ALREADY know they're being seen as inherently dishonest/cheating by the vast (ignorant) majority, they would make sure to be as 'in regulation' as possible.
The only exception to that statement would be transgender people who, as it's called, "go stealth".

It's as gray an area as with transgender women who (whilst technically meeting the requirements) have not actually applied for gender-reclassification, yet compete in gender-protected divisions.

Technically speaking either person, the transman still playing in gender-protected whilst taking hormones, and the transwoman playing in gender-protected whilst not having requested gender-reclassification, would be doing competing outside the scope of the rules, and as such be susceptible to punishment.

But it's also as gray as the non-member who is 'only 48' but already plays in MA50.
Or a non-member who consistently plays 940 rounds, signs up for MA3

And I am fairly certain that the incidence of THAT happening is vastly higher than the scenario set forth by you.

 

[Noill]

if a player in a female protected division is a transgender male, that person would be "enhancing" with testosterone. Maybe that is just seen as juicing and is against the rules that way.

I doubt there is even one actual case of this...more just a theoretical question.

 

[Nova P]

so, a transgender man could stay classified in a female protected division until they ask to be reclassified?

is that the case or..?

No.

It's spelled out in black and white in the policy on eligibility for gender-protected divisions. The instant he begins taking hormone therapy for transition from female to male, he is ineligible to compete in the gender-protected divisions.

Players who were assigned female gender under the criteria detailed above and who are taking hormone treatments to increase testosterone levels are no longer eligible to compete in gender protected divisions.

https://www.pdga.com/medical/gender-protected-divisions-eligibility-policy

 

[gingerandhoney]

if a player in a female protected division is a transgender male, that person would be "enhancing" with testosterone. Maybe that is just seen as juicing and is against the rules that way.

I doubt there is even one actual case of this...more just a theoretical question.

correct. In that moment it would be considered using doping. The PDGA do not officially have an anti-doping policy yet, but that doesn't make the player more eligible to do so at their behest.

 

[rj29274]

why do people care about amateur titles?

 

[robdeforge]

I don't think anyone is seriously concerned that men are going to transition for the purpose of winning in a sport.

maybe not in this thread, and I don't think you should be expected to defend a statement you haven't made. but this is a VERY common comment that shows up in basically every single discussion about transgender athletes.

 

[gingerandhoney]

Unfortunately so, Rob... Together with "male advantage"

I wihs it weren't the case though. But if anything, the people in this thread seem to be more willing to educate themselves, and listen to first-hand knowledge. If not as 'truth' than at least as "ok, so this is how it is for them" and "oh, so this is what they experience"

 

[Halcón]

Laura, why do you put quotes around "male advantage."

 

[gingerandhoney]

Laura, why do you put quotes around "male advantage."

Because I am quoting a comment that would be made. By using quotes around it, I am distinguisging between my words and "the quoted text".
I am not using quotes to "pretend" or "question validity"

 

[Discette]

You had a PDGA Player Rating of 874 in December. The tour standards determine when a professional player can be fully reclassified as an Amateur:

A professional male player over 40 must be rated less than 935 to be reclassified as an Amateur. If you were a male who was 49 or less, the PDGA would approve the reclassification with your 874 rating.

A professional female player under 40 must be rated less than 875 to be reclassified as an Amateur player. If you were under 40 and fully transitioned to female when you petitioned, the PDGA would approve the reclassification with your 874 rating.

A professional female 40 and older must be rated less than 825 to be reclassified as an Am Player.


I only have two questions for you:

Were you classified as a male or female when you petitioned the PDGA to reinstate your amateur status?

How old were you when you when the PDGA reinstated your amateur status?

 

[gingerandhoney]

You had a PDGA Player Rating of 874 in December. The tour standards determine when a professional player can be fully reclassified as an Amateur:

A professional male player over 40 must be rated less than 935 to be reclassified as an Amateur. If you were a male who was 49 or less, the PDGA would approve the reclassification with your 874 rating.

A professional female player under 40 must be rated less than 875 to be reclassified as an Amateur player. If you were under 40 and fully transitioned to female when you petitioned, the PDGA would approve the reclassification with your 874 rating.

A professional female 40 and older must be rated less than 825 to be reclassified as an Am Player.


I only have two questions for you:

Were you classified as a male or female when you petitioned the PDGA to reinstate your amateur status?

How old were you when you when the PDGA reinstated your amateur status?

?!?!?!?!
Where does this come from?!?!?!
Is it because I have won events in Pro divisions? Here's a newsflash for you, outside North America, C tier events may be 0% payout. See PDGA International Guide.
You only lose Amateur Status if you accept cash in a Pro division when placing above the payout cut line.

Question 1. I never asked for Pro to Am reclassification. I didn't need to.
Until the day before yesterday (when TD report for last weekend's even had been submitted. I now have retro-actively been made pro per tournament end date, Sept 1st 2019) I have NEVER BEEN Pro.
Nor, for your information, have I ever declined cash in order to retain my Am Status.

Question 2. See Answer to question 1.

I have only petitioned the PDGA for a gender-reclassification (male to female), early 2019, after knowing I'd tick all boxes (per Dec 24th 20-8), and was granted that March 15th, 2019.

 

[gingerandhoney]

?!?!?!?!
I have only petitioned the PDGA for a gender-reclassification (male to female), early 2019, after knowing I'd tick all boxes (per Dec 24th 20-8), and was granted that March 15th, 2019.

"Dec 24th 20-8" should be "Dec 24th 2018".

 

[Halcón]

Because I am quoting a comment that would be made. By using quotes around it, I am distinguisging between my words and "the quoted text".
I am not using quotes to "pretend" or "question validity"

Well, do you question the validity of males having an inherent advantage over females?

 

[Monocacy]

Well, do you question the validity of males having an inherent advantage over females?

Well, did you read the thread? This is well-covered ground.

You may choose to agree or disagree, but the question has been asked and answered more than once.

 

[Halcón]

Nah. Too many words, man. Much easier to ask a dimple question and hopefully get a simple answer.