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Marshall Street PDGA Rules Letter

smyith

Suffers from Delusions of Grandeur
Silver level trusted reviewer
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
4,039
PDGA Rules
Hard & Heavy
George Brett Goes Nuts

Rules are tricky. For a rule to survive, it has to be enforced. Without enforcement, rules not only cease to have meaning, their existence creates confusion while calling into question the logic and authority behind them.

Right now the PDGA has two technical standards on the books that are rarely enforced, flexibility and weight. We play a competitive game where inches dictate outcomes, yet the rules defining our equipment get a wink and a nod all the way from the manufacturer through the merchant to the players, many of whom love firm, heavy discs.

It's one of disc golf's enduring conundrums.

Flexibility

The PDGA's flexibility test involves pushing a disc vertically down onto a scale until it bends to half of the inside diameter (to taco shape) with less than 27 lbs. of applied pressure. Discs too rigid to pass this test are deemed illegal for sanctioned PDGA play.

We pulled some PDGA Approved discs off the shelf to see if they would pass, and a whole bunch didn't. Some weren't even close. At the same time a lot of wide-winged wicked fast drivers -- the kind of disc that could draw blood and raise welts if thrown into a crowd -- passed relatively easily.


A simple sounding solution is for the PDGA to put the onus on manufacturers to produce discs that comply with the rules. This seems like a reasonable idea, until you bring up the other, related PDGA Technical Standard that is seldom enforced.

Weight

We weigh every disc here at Marshall Street. Relatively few of the discs in our inventory are illegally heavy. There's a simple reason for this. Overweight discs -- particularly certain models -- sell like 10 Year Buzzzes. We'd buy more if manufacturers' order forms had an "Illegal" column, but they don't.

We receive overweight discs from lots of manufacturers. One thing they nearly all have in common is a stamp, sticker or Sharpied number indicating a legal weight.

What we seldom see, however, are outrageously overweight discs -- more than five grams. So while manufacturers are apparently aware of the weight limits on their discs, many treat these maximums like the Speed Limit we are careful not to exceed by more than, say, 10 miles an hour.

The Problem

We can't decide if playing PDGA events with discs that don't conform to the PDGA Technical Standards is really cheating, or if we care. We wonder if the Technical Standards have shifted so far away from their intended purpose to still make sense.

Initially the PDGA's weight and flexibility standards were established to keep the game safe by approving discs that wouldn't kill or seriously wound people struck by them. It might be that the PDGA avoids this original intent because if it sanctioned discs with technical standards in place explicitly to ensure safety, it could be liable for injuries caused by PDGA-approved models thrown into innocent bystanders' heads.

At any rate, the same standards wound up being applied to all discs regardless of shape. So while a relatively lethal object such as a Speed 13 driver remains legal as long as it can pass the flex test, a relatively non-lethal putter is illegal if it's too firm.

While the PDGA spot checks approved discs for compliance, discs aren't flex tested and weighed at tournaments (with the exception of Japan, where discs have to be 150-Class). The PDGA isn't about to require tournament directors to set up testing tents, either. TDs have enough on their plates already, and would be hesitant to disqualify the very players they worked so hard to attract. So once a disc reaches a player's bag, it's safe from prying scales.

Meanwhile our sport grows ripe for its own George Brett Pine Tar incident.

One player will get a TD or PDGA Official to weigh or flex-test a competitor's discs, who then gets disqualified for using illegally heavy and/or firm discs. It won't be pretty, but it will be great YouTube.

The Solution

Short of revising the rules, the PDGA could get ahead of the issue and begin spot checking players' discs before and after National Tour events. A less intrusive approach would be providing NTs with scales that measure (preferably 10ths of) grams up to 27 lbs. -- the only piece of equipment needed for either test -- so players can check their own discs.

A complicating factor with flex testing discs at tournament is that colder temperatures make them more rigid, essentially negating cold weather results. Plus disc golfers wince at just the thought of bending their discs till they're taco-shaped.

The PDGA could additionally require Tour Players to pledge to use only legal equipment at sanctioned events, and define the use of illegal equipment as disqualifiable cheating.



Jeff Homburg, who provided helpful and honest feedback on an earlier draft of this article, had this to say:


Are disc golf standards perfect? Certainly not. I don't think any of the many stakeholders are entirely satisfied with all of the standards. But, by and large, there has been a lot of cooperation, and we've succeeded in many ways. We will continue to consider changes to the standards and make revisions deemed necessary for the future growth of disc golf.
 
Marshall St said:
Initially the PDGA's weight and flexibility standards were established to keep the game safe by approving discs that wouldn't kill or seriously wound people struck by them. It might be that the PDGA avoids this original intent because if it sanctioned discs with technical standards in place explicitly to ensure safety, it could be liable for injuries caused by PDGA-approved models thrown into innocent bystanders' heads.

Chuck, I thought you said this was not true. I think there is a large misconception everywhere in the game about the reasoning behind these arbitrary standards.
 
I seem to remember Chuck saying in one of the threads here that the flex test was created for safety reasons. Found it:

Yes, the flex test is about safety. Some of those production discs have been submitted for testing and have passed and some have not with the manufacturer swapping out discs with those that didn't comply.


I'm happy to see a retailer finally speak out about this. I'm guessing Marshall St got burned by the 10th Anniversary Buzzzes since it was the example they cited. Haven't a lot of them been porkers?

Will the PDGA start enforcing their own standards? No. They'll continue to be passive until it becomes a major issue...after it's already too late. I know I've been a big squeaky wheel about this in the many threads we have on this topic, but with the inconsistent nature of the materials that comprise our equipment, I can't say I blame them anymore. I just don't care.
 
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It isn't true to my knowledge. I think Jason needs a documented quote from back at that time to back up his statement. One reason for creating the original standards was simply to specify a standard range of disc characteristics that defined our game the same way it's being set for legal equipment in any sport. Many or all of those standards in other sports havenothing to do with safety, just consistency. The weight limit had more to do with the fact that the average strength players were able to throw discs in the current weight range pretty far. Only the super studs could loft a 200+ gram disc any distance. Sam Ferrans set the 625 ft record in the 80s with a 165g Phoenix for example.
 
I seem to remember Chuck saying in one of the threads here that the flex test was created for safety reasons. Found it:




I'm happy to see a retailer finally speak out about this. I'm guessing Marshall St got burned by the 10th Anniversary Buzzzes since it was the example they cited. Haven't a lot of them been porkers?

Will the PDGA start enforcing their own standards? No. They'll continue to be passive until it becomes a major issue...after it's already too late. I know I've been a big squeaky wheel about this in the many threads we have on this topic, but with the inconsistent nature of the materials that comprise our equipment, I can't say I blame them anymore. I just don't care.

I didn't read that as "10 year Buzzzes are overweight" - I read it as "heavy discs sell like hot cakes!" (Or 10 Year Buzzzes, if you will)

In other words, they're popular.
 
i too have been a squeaky wheel. I'm tired of seeming to be one a select few who has actively tried to conform to the rules, even getting Dynamic discs involved in a decent sized return/exchange due to overweight discs (which they were AWESOME during). and don't throw one of my favorite discs because i haven't been able to find one within legal weight.i'd rather the PDGA just come out and make a black/white statement...on weight/flex, and be done with it.either figure out how to enforce it, or rename them "guidelines"
 
Relative safety is indirectly implied with some standards because getting hit by a golf ball or baseball or disc at playing speeds is not "safe" in general. But a current spec golf ball is safer than a heavier illegal ball, a current spec baseball is "safer" than one made with harder materials than allowed and a less flexible disc made of metal will do more damage than a current spec disc of the same shape.
 
I didn't read that as "10 year Buzzzes are overweight" - I read it as "heavy discs sell like hot cakes!" (Or 10 Year Buzzzes, if you will)

In other words, they're popular.

This was also my reading.

My take is: rules that are necessary are enforced.
Unenforced rulles clutter and dilute the Rule Book.
Either enforce the standard or eliminate it.
No middle ground, really.
 
This was also my reading.

My take is: rules that are necessary are enforced.
Unenforced rulles clutter and dilute the Rule Book.
Either enforce the standard or eliminate it.
No middle ground, really.

I paid attention and tried to care to the whole fiasco until "IDGC Supervisor" responded to my statement that the new flat top Firebirds were also too stiff with a claim that they were tested and while being stiff, they passed. I believe that is a blatant lie and an insult to my intelligence and after that I went into the F* PDGA mode. If they're going to be so selective about enforcing their own rules, I'm going to be equally selective about following them. And if they honestly believe I'm stupid, I might as well play stupid.
 
I still don't understand how its "safer" to be hit by a 172g boss than a 174g 10x aviar that wont bend.
 
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Let's nip this in the bud, while our game is still in its infancy.
 
My take is: rules that are necessary are enforced.
Unenforced rules clutter and dilute the Rule Book.
Either enforce the standard or eliminate it.
No middle ground, really.

agreed!
 
Sure, I wish I could throw a 200g putter in a tournament, especially inthe wind (yes, I've thrown 200g putters before...they are awesome in the circle) but really, what's the purpose? I've found if you buy most putters and drivers in the 170-172g range and mids in the 175g, you generally don't get ones that are overweight. Pretty simple, actually.
 
This is an area where the middle ground has been the optimum balancing point for the tradeoffs since the mid-80s. Flex and weight standards have been there since the mid-80s. Overweight and less flexible discs have regularly been made since then to the best of our knowledge. Players haven't made more than a handful of calls since the mid-80s. TDs haven't tested the discs.

While the microscope may be focused on this cockeyed balancing act right now with Gateway and Prodigy compliance, players are still not calling out other players and TDs are not testing. I would expect the PDGA to act only if that starts becoming a cumbersome issue at events, but not just because people are complaining.
 
I didn't read that as "10 year Buzzzes are overweight" - I read it as "heavy discs sell like hot cakes!" (Or 10 Year Buzzzes, if you will)

In other words, they're popular.

It doesn't say heavy discs sell, it says OVERweight discs sell.
 
I agree that there should be some definite ruling on disc standards, but I am unsure of how to enforce the flex test without pissing people off? I know watching some of my discs getting flex tested would be an unpleasant experience, possibly mentally ruining a round.
 
I know that the PDGA had a problem with Gateways medium plastic. I have a black McPro Aviar and it is literally hard as a rock and has no flex whatsoever

Are they going to crack down on the KC/mcpro plastic?
 
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