Marshall Street PDGA Rules Letter

[smyith]

You're making this harder than it should be. If the disc says Non PDGA compliant, then it should be illegal to use. If it says PDGA Compliant or PDGA Approved(Pre-weight war) It would be legal.

I was specifically referring to your grandfather statement. am I supposed to replace all my discs when the new rule takes effect?

Smyith was talking simply about weight, and I think he underestimates the number of discs Innova makes anyway. Consistency in the way some were discussing it refers to getting exact plastic blends, domes, PLHs etc., and that really would require huge capital investments, including temperature and humidity control for the entire facility and much more expensive material costs.

weight I think is the only factor that is financially affordable to control. flex is an issue that I do not know enough about plastic mularky to make a semi-educated statement on control. Though I think this could be done by testing one out of every *insert#* to check if it complies.
The actual specs would be nearly impossible to control financially without serious rise in cost passed to customers.
My numbers would make it so roughly 1 person would check 748000 discs a year. So ya that probably is low. I guess I should have completed the calculations first. 3000 in one day sounds like alot, 750k in a year doesn't.

No it doesn't. Good luck with that ghost stamp!

ghost stamps are not hard to get rid of, especially on star and champ like plastic. and some manus dont put much of a hot stamp on and are easy to erase from existence.

 

[mashnut]

I would be surprised if innova isn't making at least 10-20x that many discs in a year, so weighing them all at your estimated rate would mean adding several full time employees to a fairly small company. That adds up to a cost that really would be reflected in the purchase price IMO.

 

[pineappletrees]

I was specifically referring to your grandfather statement. am I supposed to replace all my discs when the new rule takes effect?

Dude, I said any disc that does not say "Non PDGA Compliant" would work. Wether it says PDGA Approved, like most existing discs do, my proposed "PDGA Compliant," or nothing at all then it would be legal.

 

[Halcón]

Smyith was talking simply about weight, and I think he underestimates the number of discs Innova makes anyway. Consistency in the way some were discussing it refers to getting exact plastic blends, domes, PLHs etc., and that really would require huge capital investments, including temperature and humidity control for the entire facility and much more expensive material costs.

MST's letter pinpointed weight, and flex. Both easy fixes. The PDGA can barely put any teeth into their enforcement of these two aspects of disc production. You think they care about dome, PLH, and all that other stuff? That's for us forum nerds to nitpick, not the PDGA.

 

[mashnut]

I'll bet that those cheap pieces of plastic are more consistent across the board as well...

And it's Cheese-eating Surrender Monkey.

How do you know how much waste they have? Regrind? The vast majority of that stuff comes from huge factories overseas anyway. You can't compare that to small disc manufacturers. (Even Innova is small, comparatively)

If MVP can effectively produce consistent discs from run to run at a competitive price, the other manufacturers should be able to do it as well. (MVP is smaller than Innova...and where are they produced?).

Exactly. I was responding to your post about department store pieces of plastic and their apparent consistency.

Exactly? Your argument sure seems to be about the consistency of a company's product being in direct proportion to the size of the manufacturer...

Innova's been in this business almost as many decades as MVP has years. Their product is inconsistent because they don't care to improve their processes, not because they're a small company.

If MVP ever starts producing discs at Innova's volumes, well see how well that alleged consistency holds up.

Innova has never been consistent. MVP already has those measures built into their manufacturing process. Being an injection molding company prior to venturing into discs, I don't think that's a valid argument in this case.

This is the consistency discussion I was responding to.

 

[wake911]

MST's letter pinpointed weight, and flex. Both easy fixes. The PDGA can barely put any teeth into their enforcement of these two aspects of disc production. You think they care about dome, PLH, and all that other stuff? That's for us forum nerds to nitpick, not the PDGA.

Dome and PLH are not on the pdga approved list as factors that metter.

there is going to be a blow-up event at an NT or Major, where 1st will get DQ'd or 2 shot penalty out of first place and crap will hit the fan. Maybe then we'll get a legit answer and a solid plan moving forward. Sucks it will take that, but I agree that is what it will take.

 

[tbird888]

This is the consistency discussion I was responding to.

I don't think a lot of those variables are as difficult to replicate as you are saying. MVP is first and foremost an injection molding company. I would venture to say that they aren't buying their plastic from whatever company has the scrap to give. This means they can request a specific blend of plastic, probably one that matches one of their other contracts to keep plastic costs low, and have it be the same every time. That's something the other companies just can't do. They also have a completely different manufacturing process from other companies with their two piece process.

I don't have two Ions that I know are from different runs, but I would be interested in seeing a couple profiles of two from different runs. Has anyone heard of anyone (comparing same mold Ions) saying they bought an Ion, and it flew more/less OS than their last one?

 

[nwdiscnoob]

there is going to be a blow-up event at an NT or Major, where 1st will get DQ'd or 2 shot penalty out of first place and crap will hit the fan. Maybe then we'll get a legit answer and a solid plan moving forward. Sucks it will take that, but I agree that is what it will take.

Yep, and whomever was in first place should make their first stop to a lawyers office...How is it I got disqualified from a PDGA tourney using only discs stamped "PDGA approved"??
Manufacturers have deep pockets, the TD and even the PDGA, not so much...

This has been a very interesting thread as a non Turney/PDGA player. Makes me wonder why I should even join...It sounds like a scam to me, like the ASE certs. in the automotive field..

 

[Widdershins]

Perhaps the PDGA and the manufacturers and tournament players have never made a big deal out of overweight and over-stiff discs because it has such minimal impact on how well a disc flies.

I have never heard any competitor say they lost a tournament because their opponent's disc was 2 grams over specs and it gave an unfair competitive advantage.

A ping pong ball weighs 2 and a half grams. No one can tell the difference in a couple grams in feel or in flight. So why do you care?

 

[tbird888]

Perhaps the PDGA and the manufacturers and tournament players have never made a big deal out of overweight and over-stiff discs because it has such minimal impact on how well a disc flies.

I have never heard any competitor say they lost a tournament because their opponent's disc was 2 grams over specs and it gave an unfair competitive advantage.

A ping pong ball weighs 2 and a half grams. No one can tell the difference in a couple grams in feel or in flight. So why do you care?

Because disc golf, in a PDGA-sanctioned event, is competition. There are clearly defined rules and standards that define the limits of our equipment and play. If you ignore them, you're cheating whether someone calls you on it or not.

 

[Widdershins]

Because disc golf, in a PDGA-sanctioned event, is competition. There are clearly defined rules and standards that define the limits of our equipment and play. If you ignore them, you're cheating whether someone calls you on it or not.

Cheating is gaining an unfair competitive advantage. Throwing a too heavy disc does not do this. Find something more important to care about.

 

[in4d]

great so they want floppy stupid silly soft distance drivers? no thanks, i would quit playing in tournaments if they made drivers that soft a requirement..

 

[18Down]

About 4 people on this stupid silly site care anything about this bs. Y'all are a bunch of losers who cant win a tournament without crying fowl. Make birdies and win. Bunch a sissy's over here. Nobody cares about this bs. Actions speak louder then words. Make birdies with a 300g piece of marble for all I care. You cant and you suck thats why you are defending this non topic.

 

[18Down]

You people are making issues out of nothing. Obviously this isn't really a problem for anybody at all.

Agreed!

 

[18Down]

Safety really????? How many of you have seen someone get hit by a disc??? Ok a few. How many of you have seen that person taken away in an ambulance??? Ok, about none. Really. Whatta Joke. None of this matters.

 

[tbird888]

Cheating is gaining an unfair competitive advantage. Throwing a too heavy disc does not do this. Find something more important to care about.

Dependent upon the conditions, it can make a difference.

Cheating means violating the rules.

 

[brewcrewdominates]

What a waste of time and effort. If we really want to grow the sport we need not worry about such trivial things. If someone can throw a disc that weighs 4 grams heavier farther than me, that same person can probably throw a disc that weighs 4 grams lighter farther than me as well. What good can come from this? I see nothing but a waste of time, resources, and energy....

 

[tbird888]

What a waste of time and effort. If we really want to grow the sport we need not worry about such trivial things. If someone can throw a disc that weighs 4 grams heavier farther than me, that same person can probably throw a disc that weighs 4 grams lighter farther than me as well. What good can come from this? I see nothing but a waste of time, resources, and energy....

"We need to grow as a sport. Ignore the rules!"

Good one...

 

[Widdershins]

Dependent upon the conditions, it can make a difference.

Cheating means violating the rules.

Then we are all cheaters, including you.

 

[tbird888]

How do you figure?