Mental State: Ratings vs Win?

[autocrosscrx]

The green, then the scramble gets me in trouble. Where a pitch out is the right choice, that little line through the trees might just work! And when it doesn't...dammit man, get your head out!

I'm pretty good about having the mindset to lay up or pitch out. But I'm terrible about getting too greedy about it.

I might have a 300 foot water carry that is low percentage for me, but the hole has a bail out left. Instead of throwing putter/Roc, I'll throw an overstable driver, try to bite off too much, and end up laying in. Same for the pitch out. I know not to go for the low percentage 200 foot shot at the green, but instead of throwing into the fairway to set up a stock 200 foot hyzer, I try to bit off 75 or 100 feet. And a lot of time, I don't make it out.

 

[BillFleming]

Obviously, fun is great. I just hate how there is such a stigma against "failure" (and really against caring) in society that we are afraid to admit we are trying.

So we have all these people that invest all this time and effort in getting better, so they clearly want to compete, but then they act like they don't care and downplay the competition and end up robbing everyone else of the experience.

But some invest time and effort in self-improvement and don't care how they match up to others. I'm one of those....I want to improve my game and I enter tournaments so I can see how my game is improving (same reason I have a PDGA rating). I don't care if I am better than you or if I place higher than you in a tournament....I just care how I finish compared to the last time I played a tournament. Same with league play. I'm not really competitive (ask my wife, she won't play Scrabble with me because I just enjoy creating words on the board, not what my final score is). I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who isn't competitive against others.

One thing I don't do though is to "downplay" the competition. I'm there to have fun and if I do better than you...so be it. Either way, I'm enjoying the experience.

Playing against others give me an idea of how good it is possible to become.

 

[klodkrawler05]

A very low percentage of holes are designed in such a way that a safe layup will save strokes over a failed risky drive at the green.

I never attempt anything if I know I can't do it. Sometimes you know. I often see players attempt shots that I know they can't execute. Whether or not they know is an interesting question that leads in interesting directions no matter the answer.

Maybe at the boring courses where you live. With the woods golf around here if you get too far off the fairway it's very likely that there won't be a forward progress option, or if there is it'll be through an incredibly small gap. relative to the opening that exists to pitch out laterally or backwards.

So with that in mind when I say play conservatively I mean, I'm standing on the teebox knowing that my play to get to the basket for a birdie look is to throw a straight fairway down the gut. Now, I can throw my fairyway pretty straight, kind of far (for me) or I can throw my putter pretty straight not as far. But if the putter kicks off a tree I'm likely to go 5-10' into the woods, that typically isn't deep enough to really make forward progress impossible. The fairway would be more apt to kick 20-30' into the woods, and now my forward progress relies on a very precise line through a very small gap.

So when I'm thinking about playing conservatively I'm talking about purposely reaching for a shorter disc, something I throw just as well as any other disc. I'm consciously making the decision to forgo a birdie look in favor of an easier scramble should my throw not go as imagined. Because sometimes, that does happen.

On open holes without OB, roll away potential or rough, I'm not sure that's even a discussion. You throw the shot you think will get you closest to the pin every time.

 

[autocrosscrx]

But some invest time and effort in self-improvement and don't care how they match up to others. I'm one of those....I want to improve my game and I enter tournaments so I can see how my game is improving (same reason I have a PDGA rating). I don't care if I am better than you or if I place higher than you in a tournament....I just care how I finish compared to the last time I played a tournament. Same with league play. I'm not really competitive (ask my wife, she won't play Scrabble with me because I just enjoy creating words on the board, not what my final score is). I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who isn't competitive against others.

One thing I don't do though is to "downplay" the competition. I'm there to have fun and if I do better than you...so be it. Either way, I'm enjoying the experience.

Playing against others give me an idea of how good it is possible to become.

That's cool. Long story short, I'm not one for competition small talk. I'm not looking to say "great shot" and "that'll putt" and thank everyone that compliments anything I do that hints at competency. I find it exhausting.

 

[BillFleming]

That's cool. Long story short, I'm not one for competition small talk. I'm not looking to say "great shot" and "that'll putt" and thank everyone that compliments anything I do that hints at competency. I find it exhausting.

I agree with that....I felt that way with ball golf also. Save the complements for the exceptional shots. Otherwise, it feels like people are just saying things to say something.

Depending on who is in my group, I might make small talk; what do you do for a living, what disc did you throw....but I usually wait to see what type of player the person is. Are they totally focused on their throws/game...I don't hold conversations with them. Are they chatty, if so, I'll chat with them. If I'm chatting, it's while we are waiting to throw or walking to our shots. If someone in the group is totally focused, I do my best to not chat around them (don't want to distract them).

 

[araytx]

Thx for the replies. My op is the extension of a discussion I'm having with a few buds. We all want to improve our tournament game and be better players, but have different mental tactics to get us there.

Ratings Dude: Very concerned about his player rating as he feels it's an exact barometer to his skill level. He likes to research previous tournaments scores & ratings, maps out a plan to shoot over his rating, etc, etc. Checking other ratings, scores, a few times during the round.

Relaxed Dude: Ratings matter but doesn't mind winning, mainly just wants to play a solid round. Never really plays aggressive off the tee unless confidence is extremely high.

Winner Dude: Not concerned with ratings at all. Plays very aggressive. Checks the score only on the last few holes to see where he's at. Then adjusts play if needed in order to give him the best chance at winning.

I've been the pure ratings dude and it's a mind fk for sure. Now I'm in the middle of the ratings/relaxed dude but I think this has caused me to stagnate due to limiting my shot selection resulting in less risk/reward, lost scoring opportunities. Obviously at any time you want to shoot the best shot you can execute, but I've been mainly sticking with shots in my comfort zone.

Example: 350 to the basket, basket has a few guardian trees, ob left and right, but the fairway is wide enough to go for it. I'm 100% laying up for an easy 3 due to the fear of bouncing off a tree and going ob. This line of thinking might make me a "smart" player but I doubt it's making me a better player.

I've never just wanted to win all the time playing disc golf. But regardless of skill level, perhaps the long term side affect of wanting to win all the time will ultimately result in being a better player. ?



I totally agree with this and is one our main discussion points.

OK, I've oversimplified, but read on...

Lots of good info, thx. :clap: Going for par instead of playing aggressive for a birdie is a smart move for players who may or may have the skill set to get the bird, but if you don't go for it how do you even know you can get the bird?

Sure you might be able to get that bird in a casual round once in while, but by repeatedly not going for these aggressive shots in competitive rounds I think it can lead to long stays in ratings or relaxed dude mode which could stifle your competitive game.

The end goal is to be a better player, having the confidence to play more aggressive, while not only improving your rating but also getting more wins.

So moving forward it seems like the logical thing to do is play more aggressive (perhaps way more aggressive) during casual rounds, cash rounds, minis, etc. Over time this should build subliminal confidence in your shot diversity which should lead to more scoring opportunities during actual PDGA tournaments.



But I wonder if relaxed guy's game is a bit plateaued, how good could he be if he played more aggressive, learning new lines, etc? This is where I think... by playing more aggressive in non PDGA events, can help turn relaxed dude into winning dude. lol..

Granted...the fun factor is huge for me, I've played with those serious dudes and they are not fun to play with at all. I would hope the casual rounds/minis will continue to provide the fun factor as a player transitions to a more focused/aggressive player during PDGA events.

Playing to win is very different in a sport where you play directly against other players (like football, baseball, basketball, tennis, swimming -- versus sports where the competition in internal and you many be competing, but the opposing players cannot do anything about your score (aka they can't play offense or defense) like golf, diving, skating, etc.

I play to get better -- at least until Father Time tells me I can't. Then I'll play to do my best.

In the first situation reference above (the 350' shot with a wide enough fairway, guardian trees and OB on both sides close to the basket), you may "feel" like laying up is the "safer" or "smart" play, but you've left off the consideration of odds. Scott Stokely talks about this extensively in his teaching, and how using odds determines which is the right play -- lay up or go for it. Calculating the odds of different outcomes based on each specific result out of 10 times, might tell you that going for it is in actuality a statistically better option. You won't know until you test the theory. I know that a lot of players forego this thought process (just like a lot of players forego the thought of odds while playing poker), but doing so WILL make you both a better player and a higher-rated one imho.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

Maybe at the boring courses where you live. With the woods golf around here if you get too far off the fairway it's very likely that there won't be a forward progress option, or if there is it'll be through an incredibly small gap. relative to the opening that exists to pitch out laterally or backwards.

So with that in mind when I say play conservatively I mean, I'm standing on the teebox knowing that my play to get to the basket for a birdie look is to throw a straight fairway down the gut. Now, I can throw my fairyway pretty straight, kind of far (for me) or I can throw my putter pretty straight not as far. But if the putter kicks off a tree I'm likely to go 5-10' into the woods, that typically isn't deep enough to really make forward progress impossible. The fairway would be more apt to kick 20-30' into the woods, and now my forward progress relies on a very precise line through a very small gap.

So when I'm thinking about playing conservatively I'm talking about purposely reaching for a shorter disc, something I throw just as well as any other disc. I'm consciously making the decision to forgo a birdie look in favor of an easier scramble should my throw not go as imagined. Because sometimes, that does happen.

On open holes without OB, roll away potential or rough, I'm not sure that's even a discussion. You throw the shot you think will get you closest to the pin every time.

Well, I play 90% of my disc golf in the Appalachian woods, I don't know how that may qualify my opinions.

Your post is a pretty good example of the imaginary advantages I'm talking about. The average statistical scoring difference between "agressive" and "conservative" play on heavily wooded courses is probably pretty near nil. In fact, the advantage probably goes to agressive play. This may or may not be true for players of different skill levels. I play alone or with the Advanced/Open gang. However, players with less skill are probably less skilled at effectively conservative play (this is not always true; some players have one shot that they do very well, and they piddle around the course with that one shot, unable to score exceptionally well, but unlikely to score exceptionally poorly).

I've seen the "play it safe with a putter/mid" philosophy fail many times. Putters and mids sometimes deflect even more offline than drivers by virtue of their glide and neutral stability. They sure don't guarantee you'll hit a line. The best option is nearly always to throw the disc you can control, on a line you can execute, and on a line that gets near to the basket or landing zone. Playing conservatively by absolutely removing one positive outcome (reaching the basket) without absolutely removing any of the negative ones, is often illogical.

Of course there are wise times for safe play. But only when it's really safe. Knowing when these times are is a pretty personal thing. And each of us have different tolerances for risk, which is good.

 

[txmxer]

But some invest time and effort in self-improvement and don't care how they match up to others. I'm one of those....I want to improve my game and I enter tournaments so I can see how my game is improving (same reason I have a PDGA rating). I don't care if I am better than you or if I place higher than you in a tournament....I just care how I finish compared to the last time I played a tournament. Same with league play. I'm not really competitive (ask my wife, she won't play Scrabble with me because I just enjoy creating words on the board, not what my final score is). I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who isn't competitive against others.

One thing I don't do though is to "downplay" the competition. I'm there to have fun and if I do better than you...so be it. Either way, I'm enjoying the experience.

Playing against others give me an idea of how good it is possible to become.

I've always been competitive. Growing up I had dreams of being a sports star. And I did my best and put in the work, but talent and general genetics says you can only go so far. This becomes apparent when you step in to the ring/field of play with really talented people. After getting through school and starting on my career, I still wanted to compete, but I realized my competition had to be me and not everyone else. So, now and for the past 30 years my competitiveness is generally about me being satisfied with my performance. Of course, I'm never satisfied to the extent that I don't want to perform better next time, but I'm not so invested that I am pissed off afterwards.

I'm happy I got to and was able to play when it is over.

 

[Agricolae]

Many players without the skill to execute risky shots also lack the skill to save strokes through conservative play.

The statement above bears repeating.

If a long shot is difficult but within one's ability a decision to play shorter, more conservatively, is the first chink in the mental armor and ups the odds that the conservative play will go wrong. Play to your abilities and limits. Play with confidence. If you surrender confidence, you will not increase your rating nor your win percentage.

Most throws will not result in a perfect outcome but you can believe that the next one will.

 

[autocrosscrx]

There is a hole that I regularly play that is about 330 or 340 uphill, low ceiling, with a tight gap somewhere around 270 feet that is the only route.

If I lay up perfectly, I still have to throw a straight shot with no room to work the disc and make a putt to get a three. So there is a real chance that I'm getting a 4. If I miss right on my layup, I'm in jail and there is a high chance I'm taking a 5. If my layup hyzers out, I don't have an angle and I'm taking a 4 unless I hit a crazy forehand roller.

If I throw a driver low and hard and hit the gap, it is an easy 3, with a slight chance at a 2. If I miss the gap and don't totally block one right, I'm taking a 4, with a chance of a 3 with a nice FH roller. If I really block one right, I'm taking a 5, just as if I lay up and go right.

So the "aggressive" play is the safe play for me. I would agree that many "layup" holes that I encounter are similar.

The places where I truly lay up are long (for me) water carries and then the holes where there are trees right around my max distance. Laying up gives me a chance to throw over or around them.

 

[DiscFifty]

Yesterday I played my 1st round with this new mentality of playing more aggressive in non PDGA rounds. I played a course I frequent monthly for comparison.

Since I wasn't worried about total score too much, it was actually a bit liberating tbh. I found myself more intrigued on each hole, looking for various new lines to hit, etc. On holes where the line was the same I threw faster discs which resulted in easier pars or birdie ops. That was the perfect example of staying in my comfort zone too long. Other holes I tried new lines with limited success, but I still made some shots that were eye opening.

Obviously the goal is to play smart & aggressive. I also realize I need to focus more on shot variety when I do field work, which will increase confidence when it comes time to play a hole/shot more aggressively. Good times.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

Yesterday I played my 1st round with this new mentality of playing more aggressive in non PDGA rounds. I played a course I frequent monthly for comparison.

Since I wasn't worried about total score too much, it was actually a bit liberating tbh. I found myself more intrigued on each hole, looking for various new lines to hit, etc. On holes where the line was the same I threw faster discs which resulted in easier pars or birdie ops. That was the perfect example of staying in my comfort zone too long. Other holes I tried new lines with limited success, but I still made some shots that were eye opening.

Obviously the goal is to play smart & aggressive. I also realize I need to focus more on shot variety when I do field work, which will increase confidence when it comes time to play a hole/shot more aggressively. Good times.

Shot variety on the course is a good way to learn the smart:aggressive ratio. Throw every line the hole offers, with every disc that'll get you there, and see what is the most successful and repeatable. You'll learn all of the potential risks while developing physical and visualization skills that will come to your aid wherever you play. Plus you'll have more fun.

 

[araytx]

Yesterday I played my 1st round with this new mentality of playing more aggressive in non PDGA rounds. I played a course I frequent monthly for comparison.

Since I wasn't worried about total score too much, it was actually a bit liberating tbh. I found myself more intrigued on each hole, looking for various new lines to hit, etc. On holes where the line was the same I threw faster discs which resulted in easier pars or birdie ops. That was the perfect example of staying in my comfort zone too long. Other holes I tried new lines with limited success, but I still made some shots that were eye opening.

Obviously the goal is to play smart & aggressive. I also realize I need to focus more on shot variety when I do field work, which will increase confidence when it comes time to play a hole/shot more aggressively. Good times.

Shot variety includes backhand rollers, among other shots

 

[zontar]

Shot variety includes backhand rollers, among other shots

that is not a shot. I can't do it, so it doesn't really count....

 

[DiscFifty]

Shot variety includes backhand rollers, among other shots

I'm getting there. Slower speed discs now, faster speed discs later.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

that is not a shot. I can't do it, so it doesn't really count....

Anybody who can throw a backhand can throw a backhand roller.

 

[ChrisWoj]

A backhand roller is arguably easier than an air shot. You're looking to complete the shot at a certain landing angle to a spot much closer to you (well, usually - I'm thinking of rollers for shape, obviously you're trying to land pretty far out there for a distance roller). I think most people who think rollers are difficult simply haven't practiced them enough to get a base feel for the shot.

 

[jmdaire27]

Winning is generally an afterthought, though for local tourneys (on 'home' courses) the idea of winning comes to mind more.

I believe my mindset is play my own golf, take chances on holes I think I can get, but I do play against myself more than others. Especially two round tourneys on the same course; hope to beat my previous score, hole by hole.

That said, I generally play to (or at least, for all intents, try to) improve my rating. However, the rating has been more of a sine wave, than a steady climb...

Leagues, on the other hand, I play to win.

 

[Odedge]

Playing to improve my rating makes me a better player since I am playing against my past performances as much as my competition. To win, you have to be good enough and have a good performance during the tournament. If I had that type of performance the next time I played, it was bad timing in a way.

In reality, trying to play as well as I have played in practice is my goal. This should increase my rating over time, which it has so far.

 

[jcf5083]

Just win, baby.