Multiple pins - why?/why not?

[Casey 1988]

my local course at Powerhouse Ally has some that are pins 2 but they are one basket with multiple movable pinsre, the course got changed big in 2008 when new new holes came in for baskets 11-17 and an extra 2 holes new 5 and 6 had to add some on another spot thanks to nesting Eagles.

I know for a fact that the Disc Golfers in that State rec-park would do less damage then the Native Americans from the actual tribes specifically those living on the tribal land that do this the most, trying to knock a larger feather off an adult eagle for religious stuff. I forget the ceremony since when I learned this it was in high school I learned about that in the small week in American History class 11 grade where October has Native American Day/former Columbus Day that week and Monday since we had no school on Native American day.

 

[zenbot]

Post #3 makes a valid point, but I'm a fan of rotating pin placements for the following reasons:

1) Provides additional variety for local players (when well executed). When combined with dual tees, it can really enhance course replayability.

2) Helps combat erosion around the basket. I see too many courses were a single basket location simply develops an ever widening circle of dirt/mud around it.

With three placements rotating every month or so, each position is only used about 1/3 rd of the time, so the grass around the collar has a chance to recover.

Well stated.

 

[araytx]

I've played in places where multiple permanent pins are in place (color-coded differently). It gives me the choice of playing which set of pins and which set of tees. Since I've put in courses locallty, I can tell you that it is the cost-prohibitive issue that causes us not to have multiple permanent pins. 18 more baskets to buy & install plus.

You have to have course security and better maintenance with a multiple tee/multiple permanent pin course. But when playing them it's awesome. I can play 18, and when I get back to hole 1, I still have 3 more "courses" (configurations) to optionally play.

 

[araytx]

I've played in places where multiple permanent pins are in place (color-coded differently). It gives me the choice of playing which set of pins and which set of tees. Since I've put in courses locallty, I can tell you that it is the cost-prohibitive issue that causes us not to have multiple permanent pins. 18 more baskets to buy & install plus.

You have to have course security and better maintenance with a multiple tee/multiple permanent pin course. But when playing them it's awesome. I can play 18, and when I get back to hole 1, I still have 3 more "courses" (configurations) to optionally play.

I play one course with multiple pins.

They are a bit confusing. Part of the matter is that they are clearly color coded on the tee signs due to difficulty of layout, but the baskets aren't necessarily the color of the "pin". So the red pin might have a basket with a blue band and the blue pin might have a basket with a red band and then the next hole is totally different.

The multiple pins also make it very difficult to find the next hole, especially when you just played the wrong pin.

Please allow me to clarify. I've played courses where it was well-designed and marked with multiple tees and multiple pins -- and properly labeled, signed, and designed so one did not interfere with the other. The courses I am speaking of did not have "the same shot just longer. Each of the four options was a different throw.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The multiple pin courses I've been involved with (5 to date) have all been situations where new baskets were being purchased and their old baskets were being refurbed or they had access to an older set of baskets to place in shorter positions. Even if a park dept has another park to add a DG course, it's more cost efficient to put the refurb baskets in short positions on the same course layout for less mowing and maintenance versus adding 18 more fairways to maintain.

 

[Casey 1988]

I said I like mutiple pins one basket with several different layouts the course can use.

That being said, I will play a multiple basket/target course unless the course is forcing me to aim in on an short/beginner basket/target when I am going for the intermediate basket/target. This forcing me to aim in on an early short/beginner basket/target would have to be like a wooded course where there is nowhere else to land the Disc but in or around the short/beginner basket due to poor design of a course that should not have multiple baskets seeing how tight the course is. This would also have me thinking did the designer also forget to include safety thoughts like making it so thrower is having to throw blind over a path in the woods or something else like a tee pad where right off the tee if one accidentally goes too far there is two meter drop or more till one hits ground and there is no guard fence (barb wire is not a good idea) or even warning on the tee box/pad area.

 

[Billipo]

Most comments revolve around pros and cons of multiple pins or moveable for same skill level. All good discussion.

What about use of multiple pins for different skill levels. Example red plays short tee to shorter target, white plays long tee to same shorter target, blue plays long tee to more challenging target placement. Short target on fairly level ground, the challenging target protected with steep runoff.

Better to use standard method of third longer tee and one pin placement or use second pin placement as described to create challenge instead of more tee pads?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Most comments revolve around pros and cons of multiple pins or moveable for same skill level. All good discussion.

What about use of multiple pins for different skill levels. Example red plays short tee to shorter target, white plays long tee to same shorter target, blue plays long tee to more challenging target placement. Short target on fairly level ground, the challenging target protected with steep runoff.

Better to use standard method of third longer tee and one pin placement or use second pin placement as described to create challenge instead of more tee pads?

Ditto Farms on MD and Burchfied Devil's Den in MI ... both do this wonderfully. Four playable layouts that do a great job of creating a good challenge for Am3 to local Pros.

 

[Jimb]

Ditto Farms was mentioned earlier and I agree... I dig the two permanent baskets and two tees per hole. The baskets have different colored bands so little chance of throwing to the wrong basket unless you forget. And the baskets don't interfere with each other. I really like multiple permanent baskets as long as they are easily identifiable.

I like the concept of multiple pin locations, but it can be frustrating, too. I played Crooked Creek, north of Pittsburgh, today. I like the little course. But with two tee locations and three pin locations things can get weird. Each tee had a sign with a binder clip marking the basket location. Unfortunately, the markers on the tee signs didn't match on many holes. They seemed to be wrong more than they were right. Also, some were short, some mid, and some long. Being a traveling player I would prefer the pins all in one position. If I were a local the mix could be nice, especially when in your favorite positions.

 

[DavidSauls]

Most comments revolve around pros and cons of multiple pins or moveable for same skill level. All good discussion.

What about use of multiple pins for different skill levels. Example red plays short tee to shorter target, white plays long tee to same shorter target, blue plays long tee to more challenging target placement. Short target on fairly level ground, the challenging target protected with steep runoff.

Better to use standard method of third longer tee and one pin placement or use second pin placement as described to create challenge instead of more tee pads?

I'd think it would vary by hole (or course).

In some cases, the tee is in a cool place and you'd rather have two pins; in others, the green is really cool and you'd rather have two tees.

 

[armiller]

I haven't played a ton of courses that have permanent pins, but my current "home course" complex has two excellent courses that pull off the two permanent pin thing with excellence. (Seth Burton Memorial DGC and Orange Crush) Baskets are color coded and high quality, and not at all confusing. The way I see it, it's a luxury and shows the dedication of the community to the course. It ain't cheap to buy an extra 36 Discatchers for the course, so how can anyone really complain? Also, it means I can show up on any day and play any layout I want. I've played many courses with rotating pins, and they're great, but I always gravitate toward courses in their more difficult layouts. Those are the holes against which I want to test my game. It's a bit of a disappointment showing up at a course to challenge your game only to find that 450' killer par 3 is set up in a more open 325' location. I no longer have the option of competing against that more challenging hole. Again, in EVERY course I've played regularly that features rotating baskets, I have at least one hole that I prefer in a certain pin location.

The two permanent pins do offer a minor problem, of course. Particularly if one set of pins is longer than the other, it's very easy to find one basket blocking the path to another. Just recently, I had a "perfect" approach to a long basket deflected by the rim of the short basket, and during a tournament, no less. Bummer. I guess the short basket is now kind of like a tree/obstacle blocking the path to the long one, but it somehow feels different when your shot is ruined by a disc golf object rather than by a more conventional obstacle. I didn't hear the pros complaining about that feature of the tournament, but it's probably just because I wasn't hanging out with the pros...

I've played at least 5 courses blessed with permanent multiples, and I'd say it has NEVER detracted from the course. As others have mentioned, I find it far less confusing to navigate. On the other hand, I've played many more courses that have multiple rotating pins. On those courses, I very frequently think, "man I wish hole 18 was in the other location today." This is true both for one-time visits to new courses and for courses I've played week to week.

In summary, here are some obvious factors that make permanent multiples work:
1) Need the money to buy extras
2) Need good color coding or other aesthetic differentiation between tees
3) Benefit from course design where one basket is not in the "fairway" leading to another basket

And in case you're wondering, here are the five courses I've played with two permanent pins:
- Waller Mill Park in Williamsburg, VA - this one might just pull it off the best, both in terms of color (Mach/Chainstar and Prodigy baskets) and design (one basket rarely interfered with the path to the other)
- Orange Crush in Fairmont, WV - one of my favorites but one where the short basket becomes a fairway obstacle to the long basket in at least a few holes
- Seth Burton Memorial DGC in Fairmont, WV
- Bayville Park in Virginia Beach, VA
- Munden Point in Virginia Beach, VA

 

[biscoe]

Dual full time baskets are great, but that really increases cost, so I have no expectation that could ever become the norm.

Lots of courses with 2 baskets per hole in this area- if I am selling a course on a good piece of land at this point we start with 2 baskets (and 3 tees) per hole and work down from there.

 

[armiller]

Lots of courses with 2 baskets per hole in this area- if I am selling a course on a good piece of land at this point we start with 2 baskets (and 3 tees) per hole and work down from there.

Do you know why that is? Is there some kind of back story? (I notice that Bayville course was actually designed by Ed Headrick.) It seems to be more common in this part of the country. I had never heard of two permanent baskets until coming to Virginia and West Virginia.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think Dan Doyle introduced dual tees and baskets on his Warwick, NY course back in the 90s. I know he also did dual baskets on several holes on some of his ski hill courses where building a second tee on a slope was more expensive than a second basket.

 

[Casey 1988]

Most comments revolve around pros and cons of multiple pins or moveable for same skill level. All good discussion.

What about use of multiple pins for different skill levels. Example red plays short tee to shorter target, white plays long tee to same shorter target, blue plays long tee to more challenging target placement. Short target on fairly level ground, the challenging target protected with steep runoff.

Better to use standard method of third longer tee and one pin placement or use second pin placement as described to create challenge instead of more tee pads?

That might be a cool idea and can make a course that has 9 different hole options to play for players.

However more often then not there is a reason the course went with different baskets with single tee pad for the course rather then the more standard different tee sets for the same basket. The first is the course has had Jerk offs trying to play into the drives of others on the course playing at the same time if a second tee pad is made, the second is land in use can fit different baskets to the course better then different tee pads as tee pads need a little bit of space to play well and own line to play the way a second tee pad should be designed so one can accommodate other players, or the third is that the city wants a beginner course but no other city land can accommodate this other beginner course and the original course was not made even remotely close for beginners.

 

[biscoe]

Do you know why that is? Is there some kind of back story? (I notice that Bayville course was actually designed by Ed Headrick.) It seems to be more common in this part of the country. I had never heard of two permanent baskets until coming to Virginia and West Virginia.

I don't know why really. It started around here with older courses adding a basket or two at a time until they had a full alternate set. Headrick didn't design Bayville that way.

I think Warwick was probably the first I heard of created with 2 sets of pins as Chuck said above. Pretty sure Patapsco was the first i actually played with them.

The fact that you can now buy at least one championship level basket (Prodigy T3) for under $4500 a set shipped helps a lot with the new courses. Baskets have become cheaper than tees.

It gives you so much additional leeway to hit a sweet spot for varying levels of player when designing a bigger course. The Wing Course at Raptor's Roost has 6 playable layouts at all times which range from 5000 to 11000 feet.

 

[Dingus]

I know for a fact that the Disc Golfers in that State rec-park would do less damage then the Native Americans from the actual tribes specifically those living on the tribal land that do this the most, trying to knock a larger feather off an adult eagle for religious stuff. I forget the ceremony since when I learned this it was in high school I learned about that in the small week in American History class 11 grade where October has Native American Day/former Columbus Day that week and Monday since we had no school on Native American day.

 

[aphilso1]

I totally agree with armiller's post (#51). I love courses that have multiple permanent basket placements and multiple tee pads due to the great variety. I can play short pad-to-short basket in the winter while discing down, or long-to-long when I really want to test myself, or short-to-long (or long-to-short) for an average quick round. My only caveat is that I wouldn't do this on an ultra busy course because I think it would slow the pace of play and be confusing to newbies.

 

[Billipo]

Since I started the post, I had two different parks call regarding needing to spend money soon or loose. Including today. What should we buy for the courses?

I was smiling when dgcr posts say tees are cheaper. When I get a call about spending money by end of month or loosing funding. I can order baskets and store $2k in baskets easier than $2k in cement. Labor is not free! Of course I do find other stuff like tee signs, etc.... but you get my point.

That is why I design best hole whether to utilize multiple pads or two pins. Cost difference not a factor sometimes extra targets do park a favor. Requires future planning. Maybe second basket needs to wait for a desperation call from park to spend budget.

 

[Innova63]

Today I played Johnson Park near Racine WI, I get down there several times a year to play. It is an 20 hole course with most holes having 2 pin placements. The course probably has only one hole that could be a par 4 when the basket is in the long placement on hole 5. A fair amount of the holes have what would be a blind shot from the tee. What really sucks is there are pretty much no tee signs :wall: :doh: :wall: on all the holes...

They are doing a lot of work to make the course nice, but today I had to walk almost most every hole almost 3 times just to play a single round. It was a nice day out, but what should be a quick 60-75 minute round ends up taking well over an hour :thmbdown: and a half to play.

Multiple basket placements only work well when the course has tee signs that tell you where the basket is...

We are getting spoiled here in WI
Multiple tee and baskets on several courses that I know of...
Rolling Ridge: 3 color coded tees on most holes and 3 different colored baskets on every hole.
Wilderness Campground: 2 color coded tees and 2 color baskets on every hole.
Madison City courses, Hiestand and Elver have dual tees on most every hole and 2 color baskets on every hole.

There may be more that I don't know of.