[MVP] MVP Axis

[discspeed]

What course is that?

Taylor Park in Largo, FL. It was hole 12.

 

[DGInternet]

Taylor Park is so much nicer than Cliff Stephens not as challenging but unique non the less my personally favorite park in the Clearwater area

 

[jrawk]

I got three yellow/green flat axis and threw them a bunch this weekend at Hawk Hollow during the mid atlantic meet, everybody there threw them quite a bit as well. I should state this is the first time i've held any MVP disc.

Let's talk about the weather, friday was 70+degrees and steamy. The proton plastic had some tackiness to them and felt very grippy. my first 3 throws had very nice controllable high speed turn out to 250 feet with an 80% power throw, just like a beat GL core. Picked them up later in the night when temps were down to 55, they felt very slick. Same throw power and release angle these things no longer had any high speed turn and flew like hornets. The rest of the weekend was in the 50s and low 60s and they never flew like they did in the warmer temps on friday.

So, my question is mainly a general question about the proton plastic... is it relatively common knowledge that this medium proton plastic acts differently at various air temps?

 

[GripEnemy]

not gonna lie the buzzz might be going back in the bag...the axis and jokeri are in the same boat when it comes to me - i WANT to love them, but i just dont think i can. i have 3 fyi (just in case i do get rid of them, two 10/10 one 9/10)

3 more rounds sounds fair, then ill decide

EDIT:: @jrawk, ive noticed the grip change but not the HSS change...havent read much about it though so no its not like the "stable pink axis" rule of thumb i THINK

 

[anfryzer]

Played a round yesterday with the Axis, and did well. I hit some blame putts for a change, which is something I am working on. Anyway, also got some field work with the Axis. I like it. It feels much lighter to me, than other discs I have of similar weight. It holds lines very, very well. I struggle to get an S flight out of it. It has no fade. It is easy to throw and powers down well, which helps me in the woods. I do not throw far anyway. Using it is more like using a Comet, than my S Scout or Z Buzz. The scout and buzz are more power mids, I think. I think the Axis is more of a finesse disc. To me, it flies like a Mako straight, but works lines much better. When was experimenting in the field, I got the impression that when I miss with the Axis, kinda like the Comet, I am going to miss big. I had a couple of early release issues on the course. I am going to keep working with it.

 

[jrawk]

EDIT:: @jrawk, ive noticed the grip change but not the HSS change...havent read much about it though so no its not like the "stable pink axis" rule of thumb i THINK

well the HSS change would be proportional to grip strength, i would think.

so less grip = less snap = less disc rotation = stability loss = less high speed turn and more/quicker fade upon deaccelleration.


..... what? :gross:

 

[jubuttib]

well the HSS change would be proportional to grip strength, i would think.

so less grip = less snap = less disc rotation = stability loss = less high speed turn and more/quicker fade upon deaccelleration.


..... what? :gross:

Less spin = less stability = more high speed turn.

 

[jrawk]

Less spin = less stability = more high speed turn.

incorrect.

 

[GripEnemy]

well the HSS change would be proportional to grip strength, i would think.

so less grip = less snap = less disc rotation = stability loss = less high speed turn and more/quicker fade upon deaccelleration.


..... what? :gross:

Less spin = less stability = more high speed turn.

incorrect.

jubuttib is correct actually, less spin does equal more high speed turn.

as for the grip/HSS, when my disc is WET and has worse grip i lose stability - but thats because i lose power definitely. when a disc is just less grippy than a counterpart i can still throw it fine, other then the occasional slip up which is completely user error.

 

[jrawk]

jubuttib is correct actually, less spin does equal more high speed turn.

as for the grip/HSS, when my disc is WET and has worse grip i lose stability - but thats because i lose power definitely. when a disc is just less grippy than a counterpart i can still throw it fine, other then the occasional slip up which is completely user error.

wrong.

a disc flying stable when released flat is a disc flying horizontal to the surface of the earth (no hyzer, no anhyser). When a disc loses it's gyroscopic rotation from a stable state it will naturally angle hyzer aka LSS (low speed stability or fade measured in positive number). We say a disc is overstable when the majority of the discs flight path angles toward hyzer during flight.

The gimmic behind MVP overmold discs is the extra mass at the outer edges of the disc, allowing for greater gyroscopic rotation during flight, increasing the discs ability to hold parallel (or whatever release angle) before fading out.

High speed turn is primarily accomplished through disc aerodynamics and the discs ability to overcome fade at high speeds.... hence high speed is generally measured in negative numbers. Gyroscopic rotation is important for low HSS (turn) because it will keep your disc from flipping over and over barrel roll style. But when that rotation and disc speed slows down, low speed fade will increase.

 

[jubuttib]

jubuttib is correct actually, less spin does equal more high speed turn.

Yep, and combined with a bit of OAT it can have other funny effects too.

One of the first times I noticed this was when I'd gotten pretty confident (but not long) with my backhand and was working on my forehand for a change. When throwing the same discs BH and FH I noticed I got more OAT and less spin, but also more speed on FH's. The result was that the discs I could get to fly with only a little bit of turn and a subdued fade (I think I was mainly working SL's and Beasts then) on BH throws would flip up and over much faster on FH's, and pretty often turn and burn. When I got enough hyzer on them to prevent that, I also noticed that despite the faster speed they slowed down much faster and all of them developed a sudden dump fade (no, they weren't stalling, the shots I'm talking about were too low for that).

So what was going on? It's well known that a faster spinning disc is more resistant to turning and fading, the gyroscopic forces in play are trying to keep it from turning anywhere. As a disc loses that spin it gets easier for it to change it's angle (left/right). This is part of why discs start fading at the end of the flight (the actual reason why the disc fades or turns in the air is the center of lift moving forwards and backwards, the spin slowing down just makes it easier for it to turn any which way it wants to). So a disc that's spinning slowly is both easier to turn over and when it slows down enough (center of lift moves forward enough) it also fades faster. Add in the fact that a wobbling disc (OAT) has a bigger cross-section than a disc flying flat which slows it down faster, you get a throw that first flips up really drastically and if it has time to slow down before turning and burning it'll also exhibit a dump fade.

 

[jubuttib]

wrong.

a disc flying stable when released flat is a disc flying horizontal to the surface of the earth (no hyzer, no anhyser). When a disc loses it's gyroscopic rotation from a stable state it will naturally angle hyzer aka LSS (low speed stability or fade measured in positive number). We say a disc is overstable when the majority of the discs flight path angles toward hyzer during flight.

The gimmick behind MVP overmold discs is the extra mass at the outer edges of the disc, allowing for greater gyroscopic rotation during flight, increasing the discs ability to hold parallel (or whatever release angle) before fading out.

High speed turn is primarily accomplished through disc aerodynamics and the discs ability to overcome fade at high speeds.... hence high speed is generally measured in negative numbers. Gyroscopic rotation is important for low HSS (turn) because it will keep your disc from flipping over and over barrel roll style. But when that rotation and disc speed slows down, low speed fade will increase.

High speed turn and low speed fade both come from the same thing: The movement of the center of lift. It moves backwards with more speed and nose down and forwards with less speed and nose up, as well as being obviously affected by the aerodynamic design of the disc (there are probably other factors but I'm not aware of them). In understable designs it gets further back at lower speeds and in more overstable discs it stays further forwards at higher speeds (comparatively). When it's at the center of the disc (correct speed for the particular disc shape) the disc is neither turning nor fading, but holding steady. The gyroscopic forces that increase with spin make it more difficult for the disc to change it's angle.

So yeah, the gimmick of MVP discs is the gyroscopic design which helps to keep them from turning and fading as much as a conventionally weighted disc would if it had the same shape. And the reason that all discs fade at the end is because the center of lift moves forwards as the speed decreases and eventually it gets in front of the center of the disc, causing fade.

 

[jrawk]

Ok cool. So back to my original string of equalities.. not have a good grip at hit point is going to hinder rotation and velocity which naturally influence the discs tendency fade more as it slows down.

 

[jubuttib]

Ok cool. So back to my original string of equalities.. not have a good grip at hit point is going to hinder rotation and velocity which naturally influence the discs tendency fade more as it slows down.

Right. =)

A disc spinning faster wouldn't fade (change angle) as much as a disc spinning slower as it slows down.

 

[GripEnemy]

jubuttib is correct actually, less spin does equal more high speed turn.

right.

FTFY

 

[Sean Johnson]

So yeah, the gimmick of MVP discs is the gyroscopic design which helps to keep them from turning and fading as much as a conventionally weighted disc would if it had the same shape.

So I have a few observations about discs that I'd like to bounce off this idea. My fellow Comet devotees and I think that it's just about the most perfectly neutral disc in existence, and yet it's weight distribution seems far less gyroscopic than anything faster than a putter. Is this a case where other factors like aerodynamics have a greater effect on the flight than the weight distribution?

The converse is the Vector. I always found that it would turn and burn far too easily once you got it out of it's sweet spot. I'm not saying that you can't put anhyzer on it, it just can't be cranked over like a Hornet, Gator, or Champ Roc and be expected to always come back. So in my purely anecdotal experience, it would seem that the gyroscopic nature of the design didn't make it more resistant to turn after all and it still had a very significant fade at the end. I know I'm not the only one to have that particular gripe about Vectors too.

FYI- I have good, clean form with mids and average 300'-325' with Comets, Buzzes (little longer), and Rocs.

And the reason that all discs fade at the end is because the center of lift moves forwards as the speed decreases and eventually it gets in front of the center of the disc, causing fade

Could you elaborate on this a little more? I understand how nose up/down could affect it, but the relation between speed and "center of lift" is where I get a little fuzzy.

 

[jrawk]

So I have a few observations about discs that I'd like to bounce off this idea. My fellow Comet devotees and I think that it's just about the most perfectly neutral disc in existence, and yet it's weight distribution seems far less gyroscopic than anything faster than a putter. Is this a case where other factors like aerodynamics have a greater effect on the flight than the weight distribution?

The converse is the Vector. I always found that it would turn and burn far too easily once you got it out of it's sweet spot. I'm not saying that you can't put anhyzer on it, it just can't be cranked over like a Hornet, Gator, or Champ Roc and be expected to always come back. So in my purely anecdotal experience, it would seem that the gyroscopic nature of the design didn't make it more resistant to turn after all and it still had a very significant fade at the end. I know I'm not the only one to have that particular gripe about Vectors too.

bingo.

 

[jubuttib]

So I have a few observations about discs that I'd like to bounce off this idea. My fellow Comet devotees and I think that it's just about the most perfectly neutral disc in existence, and yet it's weight distribution seems far less gyroscopic than anything faster than a putter. Is this a case where other factors like aerodynamics have a greater effect on the flight than the weight distribution?

I don't think it's that much less gyroscopic. It's a large diameter mid (a very large diameter in fact) and that in and of itself will increase the gyroscopic properties of the disc. The aerodynamics play a big part obviously though. The Comet is a very weird design for a neutral to understable disc. Take the Innova X and L molds for example. The L molds are less stable and this is achieved removing the notch and modifying the wing to be flat or at least less concave in profile. The Comet's wing on the other hand is HUGELY concave, probably the most concave wing I've seen yet, AND it has a big bead on the bottom (which are also known to increase stability), yet it flies neutral. What we've learned from PLH (higher = more overstable, lower = less overstable) is that the relative amounts of air going underneath and over the disc affect stability somewhat (my best guesstimate. PLH also changes wing angle etc. and I could be totally wrong. Hopefully someone with actual knowledge of physics can confirm or debunk my hypothesis), so there's probably something in the design that incorporates that part. The nose isn't as high up and the shoulder is much more sloping than on just about any overstable disc, so it could be a part of it. That part is just me guessing.

Also remember that the whole totality of the wing of a Comet can fit into the half the width of the wing of a modern warp speeder. And since those things are usually pretty darn sharp nosed, the vast bulk of the rim is actually further away from the edge of the disc than in a Comet or any other narrow rim discs. It isn't just the weight in the rim that makes a disc more gyroscopic, it's the maximum amount of weight furthest away from the center (meaning closest to the edge of the disc) that makes a disc gyroscopic. The sharp nosed drivers might actually be pushing the weight closer to the center with their wide wings. Again, hopefully someone can provide evidence that points either way.

From what I've heard (discspeed mentioned something along these lines some time ago over at DGR), even the guys at MVP are suspecting that most drivers are less gyroscopic in design than most mids or putters.

The converse is the Vector. I always found that it would turn and burn far too easily once you got it out of it's sweet spot. I'm not saying that you can't put anhyzer on it, it just can't be cranked over like a Hornet, Gator, or Champ Roc and be expected to always come back. So in my purely anecdotal experience, it would seem that the gyroscopic nature of the design didn't make it more resistant to turn after all and it still had a very significant fade at the end. I know I'm not the only one to have that particular gripe about Vectors too.

FYI- I have good, clean form with mids and average 300'-325' with Comets, Buzzes (little longer), and Rocs.

First, we can't know how much more resistant to turning the gyroscopic design made it unless we have a Vector that isn't weighted that way. Yes, the shape is close to a Roc but isn't identical, so it will unfortunately stay unknown to us.

When testing out my Vectors I compared them to some very overstable GL Pains, and the main difference between them was that the Vector was slower, more gradual in it's movements. The stability was pretty much the same, but the Pain changed it's angle more sharply, both when turning and fading. This is what would be expected of a more gyroscopic disc. And basically, the more spin and power you put on it, the slower it'll try to come back.

The Vector isn't that resistant to OAT though, even relatively small amounts, so it can turn and burn if I don't get a totally clean release. With a clean throw however I could never turn it without some massive wind, and even then it holds up great for me. The Roc has always been the same way for me. Really stable on a totally clean throw, but even a small bit of OAT will take it way off it's course. And since the Roc grip doesn't really agree with my hand I used to get that pretty often. I've since gotten more used to the grip and can now throw my Vector without worries.

I actually really like throwing my Vectors on anhyzer lines, but I naturally have to figure in the fact that the gyroscopic design of it will make it pull out more gradually. Other overstable mids will pull out faster as they slow down. If I had to put it simply, the fade of the Vector is slower, but relentless. Apart from my flat orange Vector, that thing is really straight when powered, and doesn't really have much LSS to speak of. It'll rather hold on to an anhyzer than pull out of it.

And FWIW, I also loooooooove throwing Comets and am throwing the around the same distances as you. Buzzzes and MD2s are in that range too (a bit farther even depending on conditions), but I'm not that proficient with Rocs, I've had a tendency to have bad releases resulting in micro-OAT with them. On clean rips they're just about as long as any other mid for me.

Could you elaborate on this a little more? I understand how nose up/down could affect it, but the relation between speed and "center of lift" is where I get a little fuzzy.

You really need JHern for this part. But I can give a shot at some of the basics: The wing deflects the air downwards. The speed of the disc moving through the air will affect exactly how this happens, in what direction, how fast, what sort of turbulences are created underneath the disc etc. All that affects where the center of lift will be.

Now to just wait until JHern sees all this and calls me an idiot. =)

 

[jubuttib]

And either way, like JHern likes to point out: The effect of the aerodynamic shape of the disc is vastly superior to any benefits you can get from moving the weight around. The gyroscopic design definitely helps, but it can't trump aerodynamic design, just support it and encourage more gradual and neutral flight properties.

 

[jhgonzo]

I finally got to throw my FR Axis today (180 g). While the kids played at the park, I stepped up to home plate at a vacant baseball diamond and gave 'er all (well, most) I had. First throw ever with the Axis landed about 20' shy of the 340' mark on the fence. I went out and retrieved it, threw it back towards home plate from its lie, and overshot home by about 15'. My second shot towards home was definitely a lower altitude and more snap, and just carried dead-nuts straight until the very end. 'Twas quite lovely to watch, as it was like watching a Buzzz flight that carried about 30'-40' more with minimal effort, so I think I'll be getting Buzzz-like flights outta this, but at greater distances. I predict that will be rather useful in my bag.