Need a Tunnel Mid

[Widdershins]

A Buzzz will fade. You can minimize the fade by subtle release angle adjustment, but it's designed to have some fade. It would not be my choice for a truly straight tunnel shot, start to finish, because to get a reasonably straight finish it has to be turned over slightly and allowed to work its way back at the end. Flat Z Buzzz comes closest to a straight flight though.

This is why I am not understanding the Buzzz recs. No Buzzz I've ever seen will fly down a tunnel, then land there. You're now in the woods faced with some kind of flick or overhead. Buzzz SS maybe, but I have zero experience with those.

You are not understanding it only because you haven't seen it in action. I have been on many holes where everyone in the group parked the basket with a Z Buzzz. Hey, a Buzzz convention!!

This is why I cycle Buzzzes. My most beat up Buzzz will fly dead nuts straight (no fade at all) at 150'. If I want the same line at 200' I disc up to the next Buzzz. At 230' I disc up to the next Buzzz. At 250' to 260' I go to the strongest Buzzz. Discs fly differently at different speeds. You need to learn then memorize your discs and their tendencies.

Other factors can lead me to disc up and still throw perfectly straight like headwinds or uphill shots.

But there are tunnels where you want the shot to start out straight then hyzer or anhyzer at the end. So my most beat up Buzzz which is dead nuts flat at 150' will do a gentle anny if pushed to 200'. You need to have the discs, the knowledge and the touch to make the adjustments.

 

[PMantle1]

I am not a cycler.

 

[Wanderer]

Yeah, I just go with a different mold to augment, rather than deal with constantly changing base plastic or waiting forever for Elite Z to break in to that extent. There's so much close overlap between mid molds now that this is a no-brainer, IMO. Probably in the minority though...

 

[Wanderer]

A Buzzz will fade. You can minimize the fade by subtle release angle adjustment, but it's designed to have some fade. It would not be my choice for a truly straight tunnel shot, start to finish, because to get a reasonably straight finish it has to be turned over slightly and allowed to work its way back at the end. Flat Z Buzzz comes closest to a straight flight though.

This is why I am not understanding the Buzzz recs. No Buzzz I've ever seen will fly down a tunnel, then land there. You're now in the woods faced with some kind of flick or overhead. Buzzz SS maybe, but I have zero experience with those.

You are not understanding it only because you haven't seen it in action. I have been on many holes where everyone in the group parked the basket with a Z Buzzz. Hey, a Buzzz convention!!

This is why I cycle Buzzzes. My most beat up Buzzz will fly dead nuts straight (no fade at all) at 150'. If I want the same line at 200' I disc up to the next Buzzz. At 230' I disc up to the next Buzzz. At 250' to 260' I go to the strongest Buzzz. Discs fly differently at different speeds. You need to learn then memorize your discs and their tendencies.

Other factors can lead me to disc up and still throw perfectly straight like headwinds or uphill shots.

But there are tunnels where you want the shot to start out straight then hyzer or anhyzer at the end. So my most beat up Buzzz which is dead nuts flat at 150' will do a gentle anny if pushed to 200'. You need to have the discs, the knowledge and the touch to make the adjustments.

"I have been on many holes where everyone in the group parked the basket with a Z Buzzz. Hey, a Buzzz convention!!"


Was that during a Discraft instructional session? :wink:

 

[iacas]

I am not a cycler.

Nor am I.

Cycling strikes me as the "old school" way of doing things. Today, with all the molds and the better plastics, cycling seems to be decreasing in frequency.

 

[Wanderer]

Cycling always seemed like more of a 'security blanket' thing to me. Want to only throw one mold for whatever reason(like the grip, don't want to learn a new disc, superstitious, etc). Why? Touring Pro's have do it because they're confined to one brand and their very limited molds, especially mids.

The Buzzz is now only one of many excellent mids, and I would place it no higher than middle of the pack at this stage.

 

[Wanderer]

Why not push the Z Buzzz SS for that dead straight 150-200' tunnel shot, instead of a D or X Buzzz in x,y,z stage of wear, which is highly subjective anyway?

Eh, Mark? And it's a Discraft disc!

 

[JR]

I must have a funky Tangent as well but the difference is just a few feet. It is thin so it goes fast but at my power it gides well and fades so late and so little that it picks up distance where a Buzz would normally fade if Z and not so low as to limit the distance. The Axis is longer and Coyote and Squall even more so.

Naturally speed and spin have a bearing on which disc is longer for any given player with any given apex height. Sure a beefy Z Buzz will fade at 300' in calm conditions when it is given height. I don't think it is a good idea to throw high in a tunnel or a tight fairway with unlimited height. The lower you throw any disc the less time it has to tilt to a large hyzer angle at the end of the flight. The more you pass the cruise speed of the disc the later it will start fading. A medium to high power player has enough HSS in the Buzzes of stronger kinds to have security against own mistakes to a degree and fairly much against changing winds. Throw a Buzz to 300' power low and it will not start fading becuase it is at above cruising speed when it hits the ground. Naturally on harder and uneven surfaces it will skip often. The good thing about it is that the skip is mostly forward because the disc can land flat.

Dial the power down on a beefy Buzz and it will fade even with head high throws. Add a lot of spin and it will fade a little later and less. So it is clearly a matter of YMMV and getting the combo of height, speed, spin and nose angle correct with the proper Buzz stability to the shot. Really the same goes for any disc on any line anyhow.

I am not a proponent of cycling discs if you play on a course that chews up or slices up discs like ones with glass shards and hard rocks. If you lose discs often like on water holes cycling is not good either. It is nice to have a disc that does not change over the years that you can trust. Buzzes have changed and become good once more for a few years in a row too but that is rare in the industry but luckily it happens with other molds too. For the above reasons it is good to have good Buzzes that fly well out of the box.

 

[Wanderer]

I must have a funky Tangent as well but the difference is just a few feet. It is thin so it goes fast but at my power it gides well and fades so late and so little that it picks up distance where a Buzz would normally fade if Z and not so low as to limit the distance. The Axis is longer and Coyote and Squall even more so.

Naturally speed and spin have a bearing on which disc is longer for any given player with any given apex height. Sure a beefy Z Buzz will fade at 300' in calm conditions when it is given height. I don't think it is a good idea to throw high in a tunnel or a tight fairway with unlimited height. The lower you throw any disc the less time it has to tilt to a large hyzer angle at the end of the flight. The more you pass the cruise speed of the disc the later it will start fading. A medium to high power player has enough HSS in the Buzzes of stronger kinds to have security against own mistakes to a degree and fairly much against changing winds. Throw a Buzz to 300' power low and it will not start fading becuase it is at above cruising speed when it hits the ground. Naturally on harder and uneven surfaces it will skip often. The good thing about it is that the skip is mostly forward because the disc can land flat.

Dial the power down on a beefy Buzz and it will fade even with head high throws. Add a lot of spin and it will fade a little later and less. So it is clearly a matter of YMMV and getting the combo of height, speed, spin and nose angle correct with the proper Buzz stability to the shot. Really the same goes for any disc on any line anyhow.

I am not a proponent of cycling discs if you play on a course that chews up or slices up discs like ones with glass shards and hard rocks. If you lose discs often like on water holes cycling is not good either. It is nice to have a disc that does not change over the years that you can trust. Buzzes have changed and become good once more for a few years in a row too but that is rare in the industry but luckily it happens with other molds too. For the above reasons it is good to have good Buzzes that fly well out of the box.

It is thin, but look at the putter style edge. One of the reasons for the Tangent's superb controllability is it's lack of speed.

You know, instead of trying to compensate this way and that way to get Buzzz of choice NOT to fade, why not throw a midrange that doesn't fade like those stated above in this thread? Square peg into round hole logic going on here. I realize you're just commenting objectively on the 'Buzzz is the best' statements, but we KNOW there are midrange discs that can accomplish that tunnel shot better.

 

[PMantle1]

What about the Zombee?

 

[Wanderer]

Zombee has fade, and it's hard to finesse truly straight on medium-short tunnel shots due to it's wider rim, faster speed, and higher power requirement.

 

[JR]

Safety against own anny resulting errors is the reason. The better you are and the wider the fairway is and no winds mean that it is overkill for some. Not everyone. For myself i am not in good enough shape to avoid second round blues and there extra hsshelps. Living by the sea makes winds change a lot within a day and hauling discs for every wind condition is not gonna help with getting tired. I did one half marathon a week for the last six weeks and it is not enough my core and arm hold me back and it turned out that my fingers suffer from overworking. It takes time to grt in good enough shape. And it does nothing to the winds so ymmv and i do not see disc provided extra safety as a crutch seeing as how my average scores improved.

A great point was made about medium length tunnels and how the Buzz is too much of a disc for those. Totally agree which is why i like to drive with even slower and later and less fading putters then. That would have no margin of error for my powerand control at 300' but are eminently usable at shorter ranges.

 

[Wanderer]

Yes, you are right...why weren't putters mentioned for tunnel approach shots? Hmmm...

 

[JR]

I would hope that putter driving would be so obvious that it would not need to be mentioned the truth is that some junior medalists over here throw to 130' tops with putters and switch to mids on longer throws. That does not mean that it is not acceptable and require skills to get a laser out of a mid at 130' but still it sounds like asking too much of those discs. 130' can be a jump putt with a putter but it is way easier with a mid. For shits and giggles and on days when your throwing is so messed up that fh and bh 130' tunnels don't happen. I am that stiff and off at times. I have not played that much after ankle surgey last year and am not in top form of my life even though i am in better shape than in a long time and cycling top form of my life. That takes time and it is off of disc golf. Since it has benefits at work it is an easy decision.

 

[Widdershins]

Cycling always seemed like more of a 'security blanket' thing to me. Want to only throw one mold for whatever reason(like the grip, don't want to learn a new disc, superstitious, etc). Why? Touring Pro's have do it because they're confined to one brand and their very limited molds, especially mids.

The Buzzz is now only one of many excellent mids, and I would place it no higher than middle of the pack at this stage.

Wow. Where do I start? I disagree with everything above.

First the Buzzz. The Buzzz is a great, great disc and a consistent product. I don't know how the flight of a Buzzz could be improved unless it was remote controlled. A Buzzz is a naturally straight flier, the most valuable of all flight paths. Anything that goes straight can be precisely shaped. A Buzzz fights winds, handles power and handles the flutter of a forehand shot, with a flat top and no bead making it fit in the hand superbly. The Buzz is so great a disc it pulls players off the Roc, which is itself a great disc.

I would like to show the doubters, first hand, how a Buzzz navigates tight tunnels.

Next to cycling. Cycling is inevitable for experienced players. Whether we are talking about your favorite putter, mid or driver, in whatever plastic, eventually it will break in. When it does do you take it out of the bag and retire it? Not me. As it breaks in it becomes more valuable, not less. I have learned and memorized that disc. It is beloved. I know how to shape lines with it. I know how it reacts in every wind and temperature and condition. Retire it? I wouldn't trade it for two brand new ones. If I lost it I would mourn it.

So what do you do when your favorite disc breaks in? Add a new one of the same thing, of course. Now you have started cycling. Every mold that I carry in my bag I have at least 2 of. One fresh, one broken in. My workhorse drivers, Nukes and Crushes I carry stacks of. Buzzzes? 4 at least, more if I need a risk disc. The more you rely on a mold, the better you learn it, the more that slight variations in stability become valuable. A mild headwind and you dial up. A fair tailwind and you dial down. Your knowledge of those variations increases your margin of error and makes the game easier.

Pros will throw whatever works. My sponsor has many mids in many plastics (Buzzz, Buzzz SS, Hornet, Meteor, Comet, Hawk, Wasp, Drone, Zone, Impact, Stratus, Storm, Glide, MRV, a few more they make for DGA and I'm probably forgetting some). Somehow I don't feel limited in choices. I keep Wasps and Zones in my tournament box but only pull them out in very strong winds. Why? Because the Buzzz works so well. Like fine wine it gets better with age.

 

[JR]

Headgame must not be underestimated and most excess strokes should come from mental errors because other errors are easier to learn away from. Cyclers might have the most use out of familiarity with discs these days when almost any slight variation in flight paths are available out of the box. Feldy held clinic two that concerns how you play events and Climo had said to him that he concentrated for five minutes in the event. Dave was tired after concentrating too long. Having a disc that you trust to do just what you need to a degree without forcing it makes your form more accurate and consistent when you are not trying to throw too hard and manipulate many angles=your skill requirements are lower which has direct bearing on the ease of throwing both mentally and physically. I thibk i found the best driving putter out there out of the box that is regularly available yesterday. Dynamic Discs Soft Warden. I'll write a review of it elsewhere. But using it and the demands placed on mids become fewer and less conflicting thus you could pick one that feels the best and you trust the most so that you don't need to fret about the equipment and just throw it.

 

[Wanderer]

Cycling always seemed like more of a 'security blanket' thing to me. Want to only throw one mold for whatever reason(like the grip, don't want to learn a new disc, superstitious, etc). Why? Touring Pro's have do it because they're confined to one brand and their very limited molds, especially mids.

The Buzzz is now only one of many excellent mids, and I would place it no higher than middle of the pack at this stage.

Wow. Where do I start? I disagree with everything above.

First the Buzzz. The Buzzz is a great, great disc and a consistent product. I don't know how the flight of a Buzzz could be improved unless it was remote controlled. A Buzzz is a naturally straight flier, the most valuable of all flight paths. Anything that goes straight can be precisely shaped. A Buzzz fights winds, handles power and handles the flutter of a forehand shot, with a flat top and no bead making it fit in the hand superbly. The Buzz is so great a disc it pulls players off the Roc, which is itself a great disc.

I would like to show the doubters, first hand, how a Buzzz navigates tight tunnels.

Next to cycling. Cycling is inevitable for experienced players. Whether we are talking about your favorite putter, mid or driver, in whatever plastic, eventually it will break in. When it does do you take it out of the bag and retire it? Not me. As it breaks in it becomes more valuable, not less. I have learned and memorized that disc. It is beloved. I know how to shape lines with it. I know how it reacts in every wind and temperature and condition. Retire it? I wouldn't trade it for two brand new ones. If I lost it I would mourn it.

So what do you do when your favorite disc breaks in? Add a new one of the same thing, of course. Now you have started cycling. Every mold that I carry in my bag I have at least 2 of. One fresh, one broken in. My workhorse drivers, Nukes and Crushes I carry stacks of. Buzzzes? 4 at least, more if I need a risk disc. The more you rely on a mold, the better you learn it, the more that slight variations in stability become valuable. A mild headwind and you dial up. A fair tailwind and you dial down. Your knowledge of those variations increases your margin of error and makes the game easier.

Pros will throw whatever works. My sponsor has many mids in many plastics (Buzzz, Buzzz SS, Hornet, Meteor, Comet, Hawk, Wasp, Drone, Zone, Impact, Stratus, Storm, Glide, MRV, a few more they make for DGA and I'm probably forgetting some). Somehow I don't feel limited in choices. I keep Wasps and Zones in my tournament box but only pull them out in very strong winds. Why? Because the Buzzz works so well. Like fine wine it gets better with age.

How many other brand midrange discs have you tried, Mark? There are a ton out there now, many of which are the equal of a Buzzz, if not better. This is fact.

As for premium plastic midrange discs breaking in, you were referencing various Z Buzzz's. Unless smacking a lot of trees on power throws, I see it taking a heckuva long time for a Z Buzzz to break in, to the point of it's flight/stability changing. Discraft makes the same clame, BTW.

And I still prefer to carry various molds(stable, US, OS) rather than cycling. It's a matter of preference, and offers an immediate advantage over waiting on discs to progress in stages of wear to the point of covering the stability spectrum and shots.

Also, very few of us have the luxury of cherry picking Buzzz's, as you can. Especially with most orders being done from online stores. A domey Buzzz alone can put a monkey wrench in "cycling". What do you do then, junk it?

 

[JHern]

The Buzzz will fly arrow straight and finish straight if you throw it flat and pure, like Mark Ellis was saying.

The Buzzz will fly arrow straight and fade at the end if you throw slightly nose up.

 

[Wanderer]

So will at least a half dozen other midrange models, and without the need to cycle OR finesse them into dead straight. QMS, Element, Fuse, Mako/Mako 3, Tangent, Buzzz SS, M4, etc.

Buzzz...great disc, not the greatest thing since electricity. :roll:

 

[JR]

It always amuses me that people like me that are not super into cycling discs claiming that getting a new one to fit a role is great often fail to notice that Buzzes in different plastics are more versatile out of the box than probably any other mold. Glo z or beefy ti for os z for moderately os domey esp, ss or x for mild hyzer flips to straight or mildly us and the reportedly quickly breakng in d for flippy. As if the Buzz would not move a lot right when new even in z annied past say 7 degrees of anny with power to make it go 300' if flat or about 400' with drivers. Bob is your uncle. Sorry bent the Buzz fulfilled your requirements without the needbto cycle them too. Next stop the shop where they sell Buzzes. How else may we help you :lol:

Which other mold comes in so many different stabilities that they cover all the midrange lines released flat at least when given over 360-370' driver power? With great variations in tackiness for all round the year use in all kinds of weather condition. Tasty. Sure there are different great mids some of which fly like one of the Buzzes and some not. Some are shorter others longer glides vary etc. So what. The Buzz is not for everyone given the rest of the bag but it can cover a widrr spectrum of mid flights than most if not every other mold with new examples. Beat that.