[Innova] New mold vulcan?

[Tpro]

I understand the level of marketshare that Innova has. What I don't agree with, is the acceptance that because they make more, they're allowed to have a lower level of quality.

To use your analogy. Just because people may prefer micro-breweries doesn't mean Budweiser produces a lower quality. People are not getting sick off their beer or finding broken glass in their bottles. Taste preference is not analogous to quality. I would actually guarantee that due to their size, Budweiser holds themselves to even stricter level of quality. Whereas Innova seems to have an image of trying to pump out more molds faster.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking their business model. Apple does it much the same way. By the time all the bugs and issues with an iPhone or an iPad are solved, the next model is on its way and millions line up around the street to spend another $500. Innova IS Disc Golf. It is the first brand that a majority of new players will have in their hands (I know it was mine).

And I also acknowledge that the majority of casual players don't care, or don't notice the quality control shifts that some of us here do. But I'm also not appealling to the masses. I'm posting on a forum where people are the type to care about this, or (presumably) want to learn. People religiously hunt down older Rocs and Aviars, etc. because back then Innova seemed to care more about being a Disc Golf provider than a Disc Golf business.

I guess my point is, I don't know why people would give Innova a pass on quality and consistency just because they put out more volume. Reputation is everything, regardless of what you do. If the trend continues, the minority that do notice it will begin to influence the majority that don't know any better.

THIS

 

[Triflusal]

I understand the level of marketshare that Innova has. What I don't agree with, is the acceptance that because they make more, they're allowed to have a lower level of quality.

To use your analogy. Just because people may prefer micro-breweries doesn't mean Budweiser produces a lower quality. People are not getting sick off their beer or finding broken glass in their bottles. Taste preference is not analogous to quality. I would actually guarantee that due to their size, Budweiser holds themselves to even stricter level of quality. Whereas Innova seems to have an image of trying to pump out more molds faster.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking their business model. Apple does it much the same way. By the time all the bugs and issues with an iPhone or an iPad are solved, the next model is on its way and millions line up around the street to spend another $500. Innova IS Disc Golf. It is the first brand that a majority of new players will have in their hands (I know it was mine).

And I also acknowledge that the majority of casual players don't care, or don't notice the quality control shifts that some of us here do. But I'm also not appealling to the masses. I'm posting on a forum where people are the type to care about this, or (presumably) want to learn. People religiously hunt down older Rocs and Aviars, etc. because back then Innova seemed to care more about being a Disc Golf provider than a Disc Golf business.

I guess my point is, I don't know why people would give Innova a pass on quality and consistency just because they put out more volume. Reputation is everything, regardless of what you do. If the trend continues, the minority that do notice it will begin to influence the majority that don't know any better.

guise someone has a really low PLH vulcan and a really high PLH vulcan, innova is a diabolical company with the express purpose of ruining the sport!!!!!!

seriously, every manufacturer has inconsistency issues. also if you have half a brain and aren't ordering online you can find discs that aren't crappy.

 

[Zach-R.]

People will be saying the same things about Lat64 in 5 years. That company is growing extremely fast.

So I should buy now and continue until they get too big for thier shoes as well

 

[Technohic]

lol I love when it is Innova that is made the monster when I know I have tried discs like Rivers which were so radically different in flight and sometimes had an unbelievable amount of flash.

Oh no! I didn't just accuse the hipster favorite of quality control issues did I? Well; no I didn't really. I learned what to look for and how to remove flash. Now; I know the pics in the OP are extreme and I would rather not have that high wing Vulcan, but it just gives me something else to look for.

 

[jtreadwell]

People will be saying the same things about Lat64 in 5 years. That company is growing extremely fast.

So buy a bunch of rivers and fuses now and keep them in storage for 5 years, then you'll be able to make some $$$

 

[Horsman]

Lat 64 will not be there in 5 years. All they can do is make pretty plastic. There is a reason why people are taking their discs out of there bags. They need to focus more on making better models rather than pretty discs.

 

[throwfromthewoods]

lol I love when it is Innova that is made the monster when I know I have tried discs like Rivers which were so radically different in flight and sometimes had an unbelievable amount of flash.

Oh no! I didn't just accuse the hipster favorite of quality control issues did I? Well; no I didn't really. I learned what to look for and how to remove flash. Now; I know the pics in the OP are extreme and I would rather not have that high wing Vulcan, but it just gives me something else to look for.

I'm not trying to demonize Innova. Nor am I trying to be cultishly devoted to companies like Latitude or MVP. All I was saying is that I've only been actively playing for a few years, and have noticed a downward trend in Innova's actual quality as well as the perception of their quality.

Maybe the perception is overblown. But the company needs to ask itself why that perception exists in the first place. It did not wonderously blink into existence out of the ether. I have not noticed any trend towards being unhappy with Discmania's line, and Innova is the progenitor of those discs. Where, then, does the disconnect come from?

Every manufacturer will have issues. And flukes. But when it becomes expected, and not the exception, there's a problem. Perhaps I'm just a business purist, and don't subscribe to the notion that money = success. And maybe Innova intentionally treats their banner as the Wal-Mart to Discmania's Mom and Pop mentality (purposely relying on Discmania to build up the "little guy" credibility that seems to be growing with Lat, MVP, etc.) I don't know, I'm certainly no expert.

All I know is, you can laugh because all these people are making Innova "the monster," but that just proves the perception is there. Deserved or not.

 

[`cjc]

...Lat 64 is awesome.

Fuse, River, Core, xXx, Striker, Havoc are all awesome discs.

Almost everything made in Sweden / Scandinavia is made better with a higher standard than in the USA>>>

 

[Triflusal]

lol I love when it is Innova that is made the monster when I know I have tried discs like Rivers which were so radically different in flight and sometimes had an unbelievable amount of flash.

Oh no! I didn't just accuse the hipster favorite of quality control issues did I? Well; no I didn't really. I learned what to look for and how to remove flash. Now; I know the pics in the OP are extreme and I would rather not have that high wing Vulcan, but it just gives me something else to look for.

i dont think anyone claims lat64 is consistent, and if they do they are dumb and probably have poor disc selection

 

[JoshEpoo]

I've only been actively playing for a few years, and have noticed a downward trend in Innova's actual quality as well as the perception of their quality.

Maybe the perception is overblown. But the company needs to ask itself why that perception exists in the first place. It did not wonderously blink into existence out of the ether.

Perhaps it's because dumb asses have a strong presence on the internet. Your awareness of this negative perception of Innova seems to coincide with your entering the internet disc golf circus.

You don't see a lot of negative comments about smaller companies because they have extremely small lineups comprised of the most basic and useful molds. Innova releases more molds each year than MVP has in their entire catalog. Despite that people don't complain that the Axis, Ion, and Vector come in a wide range of stability from run to run and color to color, and are subject to the same variation in shape as any other disc, and another related to how the overmold is applied....

 

[emook]

thread derailed. ha.

 

[throwfromthewoods]

Perhaps it's because dumb asses have a strong presence on the internet. Your awareness of this negative perception of Innova seems to coincide with your entering the internet disc golf circus.

It's mostly my own experience. I was introduced to Innova first; and being that they were the only one I knew about (coupled with an awful, awful brick and mortar showing here in Central, NY) they were my entire bag for the first year. Needless to say, I also lost a lot of discs that first year. That was when I started realizing that even though I was replacing discs with the same plastic and weight, I had very little consistency. I was re-learning a disc every time I got a new one. At that point in my playing, it was doing some damage to my learning curve.

That was when I switched to Discraft. I may have been lucky, or it may have been because I started to lose less discs, but I was seeing a lot more consistency in my throwing. After that, a fellow leaguer gave me a Wizard, which my first experience outside of the big two manufacturers. Since then, my winters are about learning and summers are about playing and practicing. I still carry a PD Freak, a Sidewinder, and a Vulcan. Other than that, Innova has been out of my bag. Maybe someday my disillusionment will fade and I'll go back to giving them another go.

thread derailed. ha.

Oh, I don't know about that. The OP was about some drastic difference between his Vulcans, or extreme mis-labelling. It just kind of...expanded; not derailed. :thmbup:

 

[plastic cannon]

Lat64 has a consistant mold I.e. The xxx. I'm a avid lat64 thrower, and have realized that there are lots of inconsistent molds by them. Other then the xxx I can't go and buy a new say flow and have it be the same as the one I had prior. Frustrating, but there's not a lot I can do about it.

 

[Syko]

Im an all Lat64 thrower as well. I switched to Lat from Innova about six months ago, i was tired of getting 3 or 4 of the same discs and every one of them fly different. Ive found Lat64s discs to be very reliable from disc to disc. I can pick up any Lat discs, look at the flash, the dome, weight, and amount of wear on it and will know exactly how it throws. ive had many rivers that flew different from each other but theyve been different weights and different plastic. In all of their discs goldline is less stable and opto is more stable and has more glide. Opto plastic holds it dome much better than goldline, usually every goldline starts flattening out a bit. we all know lighter weight discs are less stable as well. Ive never seen a difference in discs with Lat64 as with these 2 vulcans. After holding it and examining it for the last couple days, its definately a vulcan lip thats been turned up. The inner rim is slanted at an angle like a Riot or the new + molds innova came out with. Played 2 full rounds with it and its insanely overstable. i couldnt get any distance with it backhand, although it was great for skipping and short spike hyzers that i literally wanted to stick in the ground. Only way i got any kind of distance with it was throwing a forehand anny almost as hard as i could and up about 50ft and it would fall pretty quick but pick back up once it flexed back enough to put it nose up and then it faded out hard. No max, XXX, whippet, Nuke OS, Boss, Ape is this overstable. this is extreme. Now that Ive gone over a little why i dont like innova but love lat64 I want to try to find another one of these crazy overstable discs. ive always hoped to find something this overstable, im very anxious to try it in some headwind. Knowing that this disc does not fly the way innova intended in to fly because of the lip being so high, is it still a pdga approved disc?

 

[DiscJunkie]

is it still a pdga approved disc?

As long as Innova used the same mold pieces, regardless of how the disc turned out, it is still PDGA Approved.
There is no control by the PDGA regarding variance from the original design, as long as the same name and approved mold is used.

Innova actually plays with the molds quite a bit and the PDGA says nothing about it. At various times it has come out with mold variations on discs that had been approved with different mold pieces. Think Destrulcan, Monarch/Valkyrie and otheres that I can't bring to mind right now.

 

[volkswagen]

why hasnt anyone bothered to ask the OP for a picture of disc both top and bottom, you ever think your wasting your time without sufficient evidence. and yes i can talk out of my just like the naive "brick and Mortar" disillusioned leaguer. instead of spending your time practicing your creative writing go throw, o thats right its winter one must only learn in winter, yawn

 

[SirRaph]

why hasnt anyone bothered to ask the OP for a picture of disc both top and bottom, you ever think your wasting your time without sufficient evidence. and yes i can talk out of my just like the naive "brick and Mortar" disillusioned leaguer. instead of spending your time practicing your creative writing go throw, o thats right its winter one must only learn in winter, yawn

You do realize you're criticizing people for posting on a disc golf forum instead of playing...by posting on a disc golf forum...

On the topic of mold inconsistencies, every one of the DG manufacturers has their issues. Discraft is, in my experience, a bit better than Innova, but there are still a number of problems. Domey vs flat Buzzzes, PLH on a lot of their stuff, etc. From a manufacturing perspective, the fact that you can buy misprint/x-outs from them by the bundle shows a systematic problem. Scrap product on that scale would be catastrophic in the vast majority of other markets.

I work in manufacturing. Having worked closely with companies that work with injected plastic parts, I can guarantee that there is without question a way to mold a 99% consistent product.
It can be done on antiquated equipment and an unskilled work force. You'd only need an experienced foreman and QC man to put a couple systems in place.

But why would they go to that trouble? The majority of their product is bought by one-time players at sporting goods stores. The market for a premium, higher cost disc that holds a reasonable tolerance from run to run is a slice of a slice of a slice of the pie.

 

[Plankeye]

You do realize you're criticizing people for posting on a disc golf forum instead of playing...by posting on a disc golf forum...

On the topic of mold inconsistencies, every one of the DG manufacturers has their issues. Discraft is, in my experience, a bit better than Innova, but there are still a number of problems. Domey vs flat Buzzzes, PLH on a lot of their stuff, etc. From a manufacturing perspective, the fact that you can buy misprint/x-outs from them by the bundle shows a systematic problem. Scrap product on that scale would be catastrophic in the vast majority of other markets.

I work in manufacturing. Having worked closely with companies that work with injected plastic parts, I can guarantee that there is without question a way to mold a 99% consistent product.
It can be done on antiquated equipment and an unskilled work force. You'd only need an experienced foreman and QC man to put a couple systems in place.

But why would they go to that trouble? The majority of their product is bought by one-time players at sporting goods stores. The market for a premium, higher cost disc that holds a reasonable tolerance from run to run is a slice of a slice of a slice of the pie.

Discrafts "x-outs" are only misprints. They generally don't sell discs that are flawed unlike innova.

 

[Giv'r]

why hasnt anyone bothered to ask the OP for a picture of disc both top and bottom, you ever think your wasting your time without sufficient evidence. and yes i can talk out of my just like the naive "brick and Mortar" disillusioned leaguer. instead of spending your time practicing your creative writing go throw, o thats right its winter one must only learn in winter, yawn

Why didn't you just ask for pics yourself instead of being condescending? Why are you wasting your time with this pointless post? Why are you not out throwing?

 

[throwfromthewoods]

why hasnt anyone bothered to ask the OP for a picture of disc both top and bottom, you ever think your wasting your time without sufficient evidence. and yes i can talk out of my just like the naive "brick and Mortar" disillusioned leaguer. instead of spending your time practicing your creative writing go throw, o thats right its winter one must only learn in winter, yawn

First off, I'm far from disillusioned. Second, I have to spend time practicing my writing; it's my job. If how I post is too wordy for you, I would suggest picking up a book. Third, I don't play in winter because I have a son, and disc golf is not my life; it's a sport I play for fun. Finally, you're kind of a d'bag. I hope that's working out for you.

I apologize if this post is not in keeping with the thread or posting guidelines. A moderator can delete it if need be. But when someone feels the need to attack a person instead of presenting an actual argument, I'm going to feel the need to defend myself.