Now that's a pro call-out

[discgman]

Couple of responses.

Jump putt doesn't appear in the rules and shouldn't need to.

Why not? How many different types of jump putts have you seen on tour?

When it stops moving.

Really? What if it sticks to top of chains, then moves down as a player moves towards his disc?

That's an issue? Of course you can lean anywhere you want as long as you're not making contact with anything closer to the target than your marker.

So you say this here, but then I hear different interpretations all the time. How do I argue that difference in a group with no neutral official in sight?

There is no unplayable lie rule. Assuming you're referring to the optional re-throw rule, how can it ever be overused? The player takes a penalty for using it. They are choosing to take an unnecessary penalty. Why should there be a limit on that?

My disc his the basket and rolls down a steep hill behind me. IF I play the disc on the steep hill, takes me two or three shots to get back for a putt. IF I intrepret the rule that I can take and optional relief at anytime I keep my marker where its at, putt, and take only one throw penalty. If I am reading that rule properly.

I think a rulebook a mile thick because it has to cover every possible scenario in black and white is going to lead to more confusion than a rule that relies on somewhat subjective interpretation ever would.

[/QUOTE]

Why a book, why not a readable app on your phone with more detailed rules?

I am not totally arguing your points, it would take too much time to discuss rules, its just that it gets frustrating when you know what the rule book is saying, then you have to defend yourself constantly because everyone else is not on the same page. :wall:

 

[scarpfish]

If it is cost prohibitive, I am sure there are many solutions to this, my city league basketball team each of us paid $150 per player and that was to pay for reffs for the season. These guys aren't rich by any means, but they liked having reffs. It gets rid of drama of me calling a foul on myself or someone else.

Yeah, but here in disc golf we're on a completely different wavelength in regards to that sort of thing. Our sport was built off a spirit of saving the money and doing everything ourselves. We're talking about a sport where people (myself included) have to ponder if paying $50 for a PDGA membership is worth the expense. I played two sanctioned events this year and just decided to pay as I went and coughed up an extra $10 per. Would that extra $30 kill me? Not in the least. I just chose not to spend it because I feel that $30 would be better served elsewhere.

I don't think some of you who have the willingness to spend money on these sort of things seem to realize that in our sport that is a deep minority sentiment. Most of us would rather have things inexpensive and imperfect, rather than costly and, perhaps, better.

 

[discgman]

Yes

I watched that! that was crazy, they have officials that stayed up late to resolve it and determined that he had an additional two strokes added to that hole... this had to be done because their rules state it that a determination has to be made timely. I thought he was on a terror on that round. And the thing about that...Tiger accepted it and moved on, he didn't disagree but commended them on them doing their job.

If you have a marshall, his/her duty will be to watch players feet...most of the people I've played with in tourneys don't watch feet at all and how do you get someone to second that if you are the only one? He just got away with throwing 2 feet away from his marker

Your right, he did not have his feet where it was supposed to be. An official marshall is not a bad idea.

 

[Thumber]

DiscGman, jump putting doesn't need to be in the rules because its clearly illegal. If you are off the ground when you release then you have violated the stance rules.

This isn't as hard as you are making it

 

[discgman]

Thinking...

Yeah, but here in disc golf we're on a completely different wavelength in regards to that sort of thing. Our sport was built off a spirit of saving the money and doing everything ourselves. We're talking about a sport where people (myself included) have to ponder if paying $50 for a PDGA membership is worth the expense. I played two sanctioned events this year and just decided to pay as I went and coughed up an extra $10 per. Would that extra $30 kill me? Not in the least. I just chose not to spend it because I feel that $30 would be better served elsewhere.

I don't think some of you who have the willingness to spend money on these sort of things seem to realize that in our sport that is a deep minority sentiment. Most of us would rather have things inexpensive and imperfect, rather than costly and, perhaps, better.

So maybe an extra cost to NT or touring pros for having real officials. Then you are not punishing those who just want to join and not worry about anymore fees.

 

[bradharris]

Why not? How many different types of jump putts have you seen on tour?

The only applicable rule is that you keep a supporting point in contact with the playing surface at the time of release. It's hard to clarify any more than that.

Really? What if it sticks to top of chains, then moves down as a player moves towards his disc?

Doesn't matter. If the player was able demonstrate balance first, there's no penalty.

So you say this here, but then I hear different interpretations all the time. How do I argue that difference in a group with no neutral official in sight?

Show the group the rulebook.

My disc his the basket and rolls down a steep hill behind me. IF I play the disc on the steep hill, takes me two or three shots to get back for a putt. IF I intrepret the rule that I can take and optional relief at anytime I keep my marker where its at, putt, and take only one throw penalty. If I am reading that rule properly.

On every shot, you have the option to rethrow from the previous lie with a one-throw penalty.

Why a book, why not a readable app on your phone with more detailed rules?

You can download the PDF right to your phone.

I am not totally arguing your points, it would take too much time to discuss rules, its just that it gets frustrating when you know what the rule book is saying, then you have to defend yourself constantly because everyone else is not on the same page. :wall:

If you carry a rulebook with you, this becomes much less of a problem.

 

[scarpfish]

So maybe an extra cost to NT or touring pros for having real officials. Then you are not punishing those who just want to join and not worry about anymore fees.

Yeah, those guys have big bucks to spend. That's why they go from tour stop to tour stop sharing rides and bunking on each other's couches.

 

[Slider]

Yeah, but here in disc golf we're on a completely different wavelength in regards to that sort of thing. Our sport was built off a spirit of saving the money and doing everything ourselves. We're talking about a sport where people (myself included) have to ponder if paying $50 for a PDGA membership is worth the expense. I played two sanctioned events this year and just decided to pay as I went and coughed up an extra $10 per. Would that extra $30 kill me? Not in the least. I just chose not to spend it because I feel that $30 would be better served elsewhere.

I don't think some of you who have the willingness to spend money on these sort of things seem to realize that in our sport that is a deep minority sentiment. Most of us would rather have things inexpensive and imperfect, rather than costly and, perhaps, better.

I hear you. Maybe there can be a balance between your situations and many others that have a hard time coming up with the funds to enjoy the sport they love. In some ways it is set up in an ok fashion as it is, B tiers cost more than C tiers and A tiers cost more than B tiers. Maybe the PDGA can give you an option to do a prepay for so many events and if your use them all up then then an additional $10 will be added to your fee. Not to mention, they can give an expiration date on the pre-paids, use it or loose it, good for 12 to 14 months. Then the PDGA would just take the money? this happens all the time with corporations, pre paids aren't used all the time and the companies just claim it after a certain amount of time and move on. I don't know the exact law on prepaids, but they can consult an accountant on how to do this right.

This is definitly tough to solve. I am thinking that if this sport is going to clean it up, I personally think the self-officating aspect is not good...good in sprit and for recreational play and maybe for B on down or C on down, but as a professional event in A and up, it leaves the top pros with too much drama when they shouldn't have to deal with it, when you play basketball you accept the call and move on, keep on playing. Pros shouldn't have to thing about officiating when they are the players...sometimes when i am zoned in, I don't pay attention to anything else, I am sure I am not the only one with that issue...this is a result of self-officiating.

 

[grodney]

Wow, discgman, you are in way over your head here.

 

[wake911]

Wow, discgman, you are in way over your head here.

Yeah, for playing almost 20 years, does seem to be a bit lost in this whole thing.

 

[tallpaul]

I had decided not to post this; but feel the need:

If I'm understanding Mr. Barsby's original post in the way I think I am: the original post from disgman; including player's using rules as a psychological tool; as well as disgman's follow up posts; are speaking about exactly some of the things that Mr. Barsby was speaking of....

Barsby's further point, regarding founding fathers of the game: is, I believe, wishing for a rather hopeful, but unrealistic thought that players would simply police themselves in the proper manner, as was originally intended.

To those of you who continually complain about the "hippy founders" of this sport: those types of people had/have a great deal more integrity than many of those who prefer to put responsibility for rules enforcement, in the hands of others. (Not that these two are hippys per se; but When you look at a Climo or Shultz putt; you know darn well balance is demonstrated.

Almost all of the modern superstars will leave you guessing a couple times a round, whether this is so, or not...
Put a group of similar player styles together; perhaps combined with other players who have slighly less skills and are trying to respect their "superiors", and you have big possibilities for collusion. This may not even be perceived as intentional by the players involved.

In other words, I think Mr. Barsby's plea was for complete, personal integrity. Conduct would be a rather side issue. If you are paying attention to yourself in a high integrity manner, you will rarely display yourself or the game poorly. What you're actually doing is displaying integrity in a positive manner; because that is the nature of personal integrity. There needs to be a little wiggle room there though, as competition does bring out the worst in folks every once in a while....but, this should be rare.

The kinds of attitude actions that got players in trouble 10/15 years ago, seem to occur all the time now, with no penalty; which is almost certainly the result of this having become a much more income based situation.

 

[optidiscic]

No courses ever got closed or sponsors backed out due to foot faults.
When I'm hearing complaints from neighbors and parks departments it's never about that guys foot faulting please close the course

Don't live in such an ignorant world and defend your drug or alcohol habit

 

[tallpaul]

^^^That's a poor conclusion to get from my? post....and I would prefer if that's not the direction this go in. Nothing of the sort was mentioned. (Hippy refers to the era and personal integrity rather than what you are speaking of...and now this will drift into me spouting about bygone times and being a crotchety old man...but, that was not the intention either...)

Integrity can be evident at any time.

 

[The Hammer]

No courses ever got closed or sponsors backed out due to foot faults.
When I'm hearing complaints from neighbors and parks departments it's never about that guys foot faulting please close the course

Don't live in such an ignorant world and defend your drug or alcohol habit

I tell the people I work with about disc golf. They always respond with "Is that that weird hippie game with the frisbees and people foot faulting all over the place?"

 

[Slider]

I tell the people I work with about disc golf. They always respond with "Is that that weird hippie game with the frisbees and people foot faulting all over the place?"

or...isn't that a drinking game? I do hear that a lot.

 

[zenbot]

OVER THE LINE, SMOKEY!

 

[Slider]

I had decided not to post this; but feel the need:

If I'm understanding Mr. Barsby's original post in the way I think I am: the original post from disgman; including player's using rules as a psychological tool; as well as disgman's follow up posts; are speaking about exactly some of the things that Mr. Barsby was speaking of....

Barsby's further point, regarding founding fathers of the game: is, I believe, wishing for a rather hopeful, but unrealistic thought that players would simply police themselves in the proper manner, as was originally intended.

To those of you who continually complain about the "hippy founders" of this sport: those types of people had/have a great deal more integrity than many of those who prefer to put responsibility for rules enforcement, in the hands of others. (Not that these two are hippys per se; but When you look at a Climo or Shultz putt; you know darn well balance is demonstrated.

Almost all of the modern superstars will leave you guessing a couple times a round, whether this is so, or not...
Put a group of similar player styles together; perhaps combined with other players who have slighly less skills and are trying to respect their "superiors", and you have big possibilities for collusion. This may not even be perceived as intentional by the players involved.

In other words, I think Mr. Barsby's plea was for complete, personal integrity. Conduct would be a rather side issue. If you are paying attention to yourself in a high integrity manner, you will rarely display yourself or the game poorly. What you're actually doing is displaying integrity in a positive manner; because that is the nature of personal integrity. There needs to be a little wiggle room there though, as competition does bring out the worst in folks every once in a while....but, this should be rare.

The kinds of attitude actions that got players in trouble 10/15 years ago, seem to occur all the time now, with no penalty; which is almost certainly the result of this having become a much more income based situation.

I think Barsby has a great heart and definitly loves this sport (as do I). If this sport grows and grows like it has been, you can almost expect chaos from a self-officating system. Self-officaiting...it is up to you, it is up to me, it is up to us to call a foot faut. It is up to this prick who doesn't like me, it is up to that kid that doesn't even know the rules and doesn't second it, it is up to the jerk that just hates life and only cares about throwing and not calling or paying attention to players feet, it is up to the druggies and alcoholics that really don't care about the rules but want to play in a tourney just to drink, smoke and have fun. Drugs...alcohol....and anyone as an official, this is a great combo for chaos

 

[Slider]

OVER THE LINE, SMOKEY!

lol!!

 

[The Hammer]

Drugs...alcohol....self-officiating by anyone, this is a great combo for chaos

I had a drugs, alcohol, and self-officiating party once in college. I would rate it a 6/10 on the sleepy scale. Afterwards, though, I was 10/10 on the sleepy scale......I slept for at least 10 hrs.

 

[Jay Dub]

Great posts! Both of them.

I had decided not to post this; but feel the need:

If I'm understanding Mr. Barsby's original post in the way I think I am: the original post from disgman; including player's using rules as a psychological tool; as well as disgman's follow up posts; are speaking about exactly some of the things that Mr. Barsby was speaking of....

Barsby's further point, regarding founding fathers of the game: is, I believe, wishing for a rather hopeful, but unrealistic thought that players would simply police themselves in the proper manner, as was originally intended.

To those of you who continually complain about the "hippy founders" of this sport: those types of people had/have a great deal more integrity than many of those who prefer to put responsibility for rules enforcement, in the hands of others. (Not that these two are hippys per se; but When you look at a Climo or Shultz putt; you know darn well balance is demonstrated.

Almost all of the modern superstars will leave you guessing a couple times a round, whether this is so, or not...
Put a group of similar player styles together; perhaps combined with other players who have slighly less skills and are trying to respect their "superiors", and you have big possibilities for collusion. This may not even be perceived as intentional by the players involved.

In other words, I think Mr. Barsby's plea was for complete, personal integrity. Conduct would be a rather side issue. If you are paying attention to yourself in a high integrity manner, you will rarely display yourself or the game poorly. What you're actually doing is displaying integrity in a positive manner; because that is the nature of personal integrity. There needs to be a little wiggle room there though, as competition does bring out the worst in folks every once in a while....but, this should be rare.

The kinds of attitude actions that got players in trouble 10/15 years ago, seem to occur all the time now, with no penalty; which is almost certainly the result of this having become a much more income based situation.

^^^That's a poor conclusion to get from my? post....and I would prefer if that's not the direction this go in. Nothing of the sort was mentioned. (Hippy refers to the era and personal integrity rather than what you are speaking of...and now this will drift into me spouting about bygone times and being a crotchety old man...but, that was not the intention either...)

Integrity can be evident at any time.